In this OPEN(HEART) episode of the OPENHOUSE Podcast, Louise sits down with clinical psychologist and relationship expert Dr Tari Mack to discuss the psychology of pacing, dating and the slow grow vs. the euphoric rollercoaster romance.

Louise Rumball & Dr Tari explore:

⇢ Pete Davidson and Kim Kardashian and why everything moves so damn quickly in life and in Hollywood

⇢ Why pacing is one of the magic bullets in a relationship⠀

⇢ Why people struggle with pacing

⇢ Why we attach super quickly

⇢ How to information gather and date smart

⇢The psychology of losing ourselves in a new relationship

⇢The benefits of the go-slow rather than the rollercoaster romance

⇢Why the initial parts of a relationship are the equivalent to taking drugs.

Louise also shares her own experiences, particularly in relationship to the benefits of the slow grow and how to hold onto the roller coaster romance.

Let us know how you enjoyed the episode and be sure to share this on social media, as well as giving us a rating and review on Apple or Spotify.

Connect with Louise on social: @iamlouiserumball

Connect with OPENHOUSE: @openhouselife

Connect with Dr Tari Mack: @drtarimack

Sign up to join the OPENHOUSE mailing list to receive first access to all workshops, courses and live events: www.thisisopenhouse.com

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Music Sources

Vibe With Me by Joakim Karud http://soundcloud.com/joakimkarud

Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/-7YDBIGCXsY

Episode Transcript


DATING – The psychology of pacing and the danger of dating so fast

Louise Rumball: Hi everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the open house podcast with me and the incredible and amazing Dr. Tari Mack. 

Today, we are discussing all things, the psychology of pacing, and why everyone just can’t slow down for a whole second. We are going to look at this through the vehicle of Pete Davidson and Kim Kardashian.

So there is a lot to say in today’s episode and we’re gonna get right in. So as usual, we don’t want to spend too long going into the details of the celebrities. We don’t like to speculate too much, but some of the basic facts about Kim and Pete and their slightly surprising partnership, we could say, is that it was in October of 2021, that they were rumored to be together. In November, they had their first public sighting. In January, they went on holiday to The Bahamas. So they went on holiday like two to three months into dating. In March, he got her name branded on his chest and two other tattoos related to her. In April, she met his grandparents. But, the reason that we are recording today’s episode is that someone on Instagram commented on a picture saying, “I really hope they have babies soon,” to which Pete Davidson’s mum replied with lots of positive messaging and emojis. So this got me thinking, what is going on here? Feels like Hollywood, but also, a lot of people around me move so quickly in their relationships and in their dating life. So we’re going to go through that, and I’m going to share my personal experience, and I’m going to share what I have learned. But first off, we’re going to pass over to Dr. Tari. I’m going to ask her what are your general thoughts about pacing in relationships and what even is.

Dr. Tari: Oh, my gosh. I have so much to say on this topic. Pacing is one of the magic bullets in building a long-lasting committed relationship and what I have seen is that most people really struggle with this. Most people, when they find somebody they like and they’re attracted to, and that person likes them and is attracted to them, they jump in with both feet. They attach super quickly. They decide I’m with this person. And the problem with that is it takes a long time to really get to know somebody and you don’t really know somebody until you have fit your first conflict. So if you’re jumping in and claiming this person as yours as your boyfriend or girlfriend three months in, when you have your first conflict and you figure out how this person responds, when you give feedback or when you share feelings or when your first awkward moment comes.

By then, it’s often too late to say. I don’t like how this person responded to me or does conflict, or they’re not really healthy after all they get defensive or they get mean, or they go away. And so we are already invested in a relationship that is going to have a really difficult time going anywhere.

So when you slow down and we’re going to talk about that, you actually get to know the person and gather information about someone and determine if there is compatibility. And a lot of people mistake chemistry for compatibility.

Louise Rumball: Mic drop! A lot of people confuse chemistry for compatibility. I have never heard, something more true in my whole entire life. It makes me laugh because I  personally felt like I so rarely meet people that I fancy or that are attractive. And that tick the boxes that I’m looking for. So I look at some people around me, and there’s this one girl who I didn’t really know very well, but she always is in a different relationship.

And I’m like thinking to myself. How do you do that? Really lucky that you’re meeting all these people that are just perfect fit for you, or actually are you just connecting to these people? Because they take five out of 10 of the boxes. So it’s funny that you say that, that people are just connecting and then actually later down the line, I think one of the favorite, one of my favorite phrases that you’d have a set is you don’t have to wear that full seasons with a position to even start to know them.

And so let’s take that girl for example. Every time she meets someone, she basically opens up in a relationship with them, which is crazy. And then when they break up, she seems to find someone else. 

So, why do you think that people move so fast? Is it a lack of self-awareness? Is it a need for validation from being with someone else? What is going on that? 

Dr. Tari: Yes. To both of those things and other reasons as well. So, the reasons that we jumped into relationships all have to do with fear, right? And the specific fear is different for different people, depending on your experiences and your psychology, but it’s usually a fear of being alone, a fear of not having a relationship, a fear of just sitting with yourself and building your own life.

It just creates a lot of problems. Because like you’re saying this, you can cycle through relationship after relationship, after relationship. You meet someone amazing and you’re in a relationship with them. And then three months later it doesn’t work out and then you keep doing the same thing. The cycle, a lot of people get stuck in.

Louise Rumball: I do not relate at all. It is literally a miracle. So I find that like my last heartbreak was so bad that I’m not going through that again for three months little fling. But just taking it back to the fear, I think that as we age, there’s a big fear of being alone, not finding a person, not settling down, et cetera, et cetera. And I see that a lot people settling in relationships, picking relationships, not leaving relationships, having babies in relationships with people that are just like fundamentally not right for them. They feel like they’ve gone past the point of no return. Whether, again, they’re aware of that or not. And I think it’s also called the fallacy of sunk costs, which is that once you’ve invested so much into something, you almost feel like you can’t retreat from it. I don’t have that fear.

Like I would love to be on my own for as long as it takes for me to find the most amazing partner.

Dr. Tari: You are so different than most of the women that I come in contact with.

Louise Rumball: Really?

Dr. Tari: Yes. Talk a little bit. Cause you and I have talked about it. So tell the audience more about like your pacing and how you do that because I love it.

Louise Rumball: Okay. So my pacing is the total opposite of going fast. My pacing is, go slow, and a lot of people find it really, really weird and they don’t understand it.

But the reason that I like to take things slow is that; there’s lots of different reasons. The first one is that I want to get to know you before I’m physically intimate with you, right? I’m not someone that needs to have casual sex, casual relationships. I like things to be deeper, more connected. And I think that the more you’re intimate with them, the more vulnerable you are, the way better your sex life is going to be.

That’s just my personal experience. The second thing, which is something that I love with my ex boyfriend. We’ve spoken about this a couple of times, but we started out as friends. And when I first met him, that was no physical chemistry there whatsoever. And so for people that are like, you know, there has to be literally, you have to want to rip their clothes off the second you see them.

That used to be me. I used to feel like that. And then I have this relationship where we connected deeply and emotionally on a friendship level. And then it turned into the most incredible relationship, physically and emotionally. And why was that? It was because we had got to know each other. I was not in a great period in my life when we became friends. So I started to share a lot with him and he was able to hold space for me. He was very emotionally aware. Very intellectually capable of holding space on a container.

Before we crossed the boundary into being physical and intimate together. He’d see me being upset or he’d see me being in pain. It didn’t feel like I was hiding anything from him. For the first time ever, I felt like I was loved for exactly who I was.

No pretences, no protective mechanisms, nothing. So, yeah, that’s my experience. I think it comes from a little bit of trauma not going to sit here and be like, oh, I’m so pious. Like, I’m so great, whatever. But I think that when I was younger, I would sleep with people quickly because I didn’t want to say no, that’s so messed up on so many levels and we’ll come to that in another episode. I think we’re very bad at saying no when we’re younger. I would have sex with someone and then they would just not message me again. And I would feel so abandoned and it would like really poke at that wound.

So I do think that part of it is protective. And I also think that I’m open to seeing the other end of the spectrum, which is that I could be, I could be a bit more fun sometimes. I sometimes wish I just wanted to randomly hook up with someone, but I just don’t and I feel so protected and safe in the space that I’m in, particularly not drinking.

What are your thoughts on taking things slow? Getting to know someone? What are the benefits of that?

Dr. Tari: Like you said the way to, to build a foundation with somebody that’s gonna go, the distance is to work on a friendship first. And that’s not the way traditionally that we are taught to do relationships. And I want to say this that just because you’ve had sex with somebody does not now mean you’re dating or you’re in a relationship.

Sex does not turn it into a relationship. And especially for women, if we have sex really quickly and listen like sex is great, I’m very sex positive. But I also want the women listening to be aware that when we have sex with somebody, all these different chemicals come into play, right? Oxytocin and dopamine that make us feel even more attached to the other person, which is going to even more so cloud our vision of this person, which in the beginning is really just projection.

We’re just seeing what we want to see. We’re filling in all the blanks. Right? So when we move slowly, And we decide to hold off on sex a little bit longer so we can get to know the insides of this person. What makes them tick? What are they like? How do they treat me? How do they treat other people? How do they respond to stress? We’re going to be able to make a more informed decision about, is this somebody that I want to invest in? I think a lot of people use sex to mask the awkwardness of getting to know somebody on an emotional level. We skip over the emotional intimacy and we go straight to the sex. But the problem with that, and I want everybody to hear this, when we rush into relationships, what typically happens is one person in that couple gets scared. And they’re not going to know that it’s fear that’s coming up. It’s going to come up as like, Ooh, repulsion, I need space. I don’t like that about that person, that just a week ago you were so excited about, but now all you can see is what you don’t like about them.

You’re feeling smothered. You’re feeling critical. And if you don’t start feeling that. It’s the other person that will start feeling that way. And that is the real danger in rushing into relationships. If you don’t give a relationship room to breathe and you don’t give yourself room to stay connected to you and that person room to stay connected to them, usually it’s going to blow up so that quick spark goes away as opposed to like building a slow burning flame that lasts a very long time.

Louise Rumball: I absolutely love that. And also it’s made me realize that despite just spending the last five minutes, talking about how I took things really slow with my ex-boyfriend, actually, I took it slow in the getting to know him phase. We spoke all the time. We hung out all the time, but when we crossed the boundary into being intimate, we then picked up literally like a roller coaster. And I remember the first night that we talked for the first time. I then had to go for dinner. So he left and I left and then he messaged me saying, I’m going boxing at 6:00 AM tomorrow morning. And then I want to come in and see you. He literally came back the next morning and we were so blindsided by the chemicals that we were experiencing, the sexual connection that we experienced was like so unexpected and mindblowing because we built it such like a long time of getting to know each other.

But the second that we crossed that boundary, like not only did he come back like straight away, but if I’m totally honest, I would say that he basically moved in with me. We decided to go into lockdown together. We basically moved in together after two months.

And even before the two months when we were not living together, we were together literally the whole time. We went from zero to 100, maybe even zero to 200. So when you start dating someone, when you start sleeping with them, how can you regulate that experience that you’re having?

Because it feels so good. Like you just want to be with them the whole time. You want to have sex the whole time. You’ll just like, so the chemistry of love just like blows your socks off. You are like, not yourself. You are not rational.

Dr. Tari: You’re on drugs.

Louise Rumball: I mean the best drug I have ever experienced is falling in love with a man or in lust with a man. It’s way better than taking drugs, in my opinion.

Imagine you’re in a nightclub, right. And someone’s high as a kite on MDMA or you’ll just telling them to just calm down, that’s kind of the same thing. So how can we put some rational tips and tricks to slow things down when you meet someone and you just want to consume them?

Dr. Tari: Right? Because in that mindset, it’s like, this is amazing. The more I can get of it, the more amazing it will be, which is true up into a certain point. The most important thing while you’re in that state of attraction and lust and falling in love or falling in lust, depending on how early it is, is to maintain a connection to yourself.

And how do you do that? You build in some buffers. Not because you want to, but because I’m telling you, if you want a relationship to endure, this is how to do it. So instead of spending five nights a week with somebody, you spend four nights a week and you take a night or three…

Louise Rumball: Four sounds like quite a lot, still

Dr. Tari: …depending on whatever your pacing is, But you want to consciously and intentionally maintain a connection to yourself, to your life, to your friends, to your routine. Make sure you are still doing some of those things and you’re not being consumed by this relationship because pretty soon if there is no space in the relationship where you’re each doing your own thing, you’re not going to have anything to talk about other than the relationship. The chemistry will start to wane as it does. And the relationship can’t go anywhere. You have to keep feeding yourself and your own life to bring it back to the relationship.

Louise Rumball: That is such an important point I definitely know that my ex-boyfriend had stopped exercising as soon as we met because it was like his gym was his house, which was not near to my house. Now I look back, oh, that was a red flag. He shouldn’t have done that. But also with my, one of my best friends, she started dating this guy and all consumed, spent so much time together. So overwhelmed by the whole thing in a positive way. But, she would message me throughout the first eight, three to six months the relationship, I just lost my whole morning routine. I don’t do anything for myself anymore. I don’t journal.

I don’t meditate. But what I learned from her and that was that she lost herself in the beginning of that relationship. She lost those grounding practices that were so important for her.

So that’s such an interesting point around you must keep you on your goalposts and your pillars of stability around you, whatever they are. And I think that that also translates into the friendship territory, right? Particularly when you’re younger, you stopped spending time with your friends because you just with this past and all the time, so it’s really important, right. To paste, but also maintain your original life. So you don’t fully lose yourself in that situation.

Dr. Tari: Absolutely. And that’s, what’s gonna make somebody attracted to you is that you are bringing your own life and your own self to the relationship.

A lot of people trade their life in for the relationship. It doesn’t work. It never works. It’s not going to work. I don’t know. I don’t know how else to say it.

Louise Rumball: Yeah. I love that.

Dr. Tari: Right. 

Louise Rumball: So how, if you all starting today, someone, how can you have that discussion? Let’s give people some little soundbites of how to go about that? 

Dr. Tari: Yeah. And before I do that, I just want to say to you, Louise, it sounds like you’re you like to go slow and tell you, start to feel that intense, like chemistry and attraction, so that maybe is the point to where you need to have another conversation. And so what you can say is, I’ve realized that it’s better for me to take things slow in a relationship. I really want to get to know you and see how compatible we are because I’m interested in something long-term. I don’t want to date casually. I don’t want to have casual sex. I just think it’s important for you to know that about me, that I like to take things a little bit slow.

And how do you feel about that, you know?

Louise Rumball: I liked the concept of tying it to the positive outcome at the end as well. I call it the shit sandwich, which is where you deliver a piece of feedback that’s maybe a little bit more difficult for someone to swallow or whatever in the middle of the sandwich.

So you do like positive having this conversation because I really liked you. And I felt like there’s a lot of possibility here and why I like xyz about you. Then the piece of feedback in the middle, which is the, I don’t want to rush things too quick here.

And then on the other side, kind of finished up the sandwich with, I’m having this conversation with you because I’m really excited about what we could build here together. And I don’t want to rush it by going to quickly. And I think another thing that I would love to touch upon is, you know, we’ve spoken about you being sex positive, and I’m exactly the same.

I think there’s a misconception that by taking things slow that you’re not a sexual being or a sex positive person, it’s actually quite the opposite. I am very sexually confident, sexually empowered. It’s the most beautiful experience. But just because you’re taking it slow doesn’t mean that you are not sexual or anything that you should be ashamed of. I think that in society there’s this expectation that you need to put out, within a certain period of time. And so I think, what do you do if you feel like there’s a judgment or an expectation from the other person? Does that instantly mean that they’re not the right person for you? Or is it that you just need to have a gentle conversation with them?

So what happens if they may be, don’t really understand where you’re coming from? Do you just be like, okay, cut this now? Is that a red flag?

Dr. Tari: Well, when you have the conversation, can be sure to say, it’s not that I don’t want to have sex, if we get there. Like sex is really important to me, but I just like to take things slow, so you say that. If somebody pretends not to understand that, or they’re pushing against that boundary, they are not for you. Because a healthy person who actually is interested in having a relationship with you and getting to know you will easily respect that. Yeah, of course they may want to have sex right away. It’s not going to be a big deal to wait. If they know you are a sexual person, but it’s not something you do right away with everybody. So it can be a red flag, I would say, depending on how, how they respond. If they have questions, like genuine questions, they’re asking to understand that’s cool.

But if they’re questioning or pushing against that boundary, no!

Louise Rumball: Yeah, that’s super helpful. Thank you. And I think in the final part of the episode, I’d love to go into what you actually should be getting to know about each other in those first few months, right? Because you start to sleep with someone it’s amazing.

You’re in lust. You think you’re falling in love. But actually take that all away. What kind of things do we need to be talking about? I read somewhere that money issues alike, one of the top or second top reasons for divorce.

What kind of things do we need to be getting to know? Is it attachment style? Is it conflict style? Is it where the weak spots are? Where should we be going in those first few months of dating? 

Dr. Tari: Yeah, I think the first thing is to make sure that you are showing up authentically and suggesting things that you like to do so you can see, does this person like to do these things too? Or are they willing to do these things with me and how are they in these situations? So if we’re just not being ourselves, we’re not going to get appropriate information about how compatible we are. So suggest things that you want to.

Louise Rumball: I love that because we spoke about this before that when I was younger, if someone was like, oh, do you want to go camping?

I’d be like, hell yeah, I want to go camping. And then inside, I’m like, I don’t want to fucking go camping. Like I don’t, I, I’m not a camper. I don’t want to go on a tent, but, I wouldn’t be showing up authentically. Cause I was just young and I wanted people to be like, oh, she’s cute. I wanna hang out with her.

So I love that around like the first focus in the first few months should be just being yourself.

Dr. Tari: And observing the other person, how are you feeling with them? How are they with your friends? How are they when you go do these things that you want to do? What kinds of things do they suggest?

If there are deal breakers that you have, maybe it’s about religion, politics, other things. I mean, we haven’t done an episode on dating apps yet, but you should be asking about those things before you even meet somebody on a first date. So yes, those things should be covered if they’re important to you.

Cause you don’t want to waste your time with somebody who has really different values than you on the things that matter to you.

Louise Rumball: And I guess that applies into like the potential for your future. Right? So if you want children or you don’t want children, or you have children already, these are conversations that you need to have. Because you don’t want to get six months down the line and be like, okay, cool. I’m so excited. One day we might have kids together and then they turn around and be like, I don’t want kids and then you’re like, oh, cool. Well, this has been a good six months together. Thanks, bye! You know, heartbroken and crying back to the drawing board.

Dr. Tari: So that is a question, if you know you want kids, you need to ask that question before your first date. A lot of people listening to this are going to like… Yes, Louise.

Louise Rumball: I don’t think you can. Can you ask that before the first date?

Dr. Tari: You have to!

Louise Rumball: We’re going to have to do a whole episode on things you need to discuss before you go on a date because there’s some things that you’ve said that make me literally cringe to my bones of asking that I took on board your feedback from one of the other episodes we need to do an episode on what you need to be asking before, before you meet someone. And then when you need someone.

Dr. Tari: Yes, we will. For sure. But you know, those first few months are really about bringing up the things that are important to you, having shared experiences and watching how this person responds as you speak up and are honest about what you like, what you don’t like, if there is a misunderstanding or if they want to hang out and you’re like, whoa, We’ve hung out the last three nights, I think it’d be good if I just took a night to myself. How do they respond to that? Do they respect that or do they push against it? Do they get angry? Do they get pathetic? So the first few months is really about enjoying it and information gathering. Because otherwise you’re going to cycle through relationships with the wrong people.

Just take a little bit more time and assess compatibility. So you can find someone that can actually go the distance with you.

Louise Rumball: I love that. I couldn’t agree more. I mean, I’m pro slow. Honestly, it’s been such a game changer for me.

It gave me the most sort of deeply transformative relationship that I have ever had. Let’s look at the two ways to handle once you’ve defined the answers to those questions. Right? So say you’ve been with someone for one, two, three, four, five months, however long it take for you to feel like you have assessed compatibility, mutual interests, personality, styles, traits, et cetera, et cetera. So let’s say first of all that it’s not working right. That you feel like this isn’t going to work what kind of sound advice would you give to someone to have that conversation where you say like, I’ve really enjoyed spending time with you. I don’t think this is a fit. I think we should stop seeing each other. Where would you go on that part of the crossroad?

Dr. Tari: Well, sometimes even before you’ve come to that decision, there are dynamics happening or things that are coming up for you.

And a lot of people don’t bring those up. You have to speak those things. So it could be something like, this is really hard for me to have this conversation, but I need to the last couple of weeks, I’ve just felt XYZ. For some reason, I’ve just felt more disconnected from you. Or I felt you haven’t been as available, or I’m wondering if we have the same communication styles. You bring up whatever the truth is, bring it to the relationship and let the other person help you work it out. If they don’t, if it doesn’t bring you closer, that’s probably a sign it’s not the right relationship.

But sometimes speaking these things that are scary to speak, because we don’t have the answer and we don’t want to hurt someone’s feelings or whatever our fears are, can actually help us resolve them. You have to let someone else know what you are experiencing if you… go ahead. 

Louise Rumball: No, you go!

Dr. Tari: And if you get to the point where you’ve realized this just isn’t going to work. I think you just have to be honest and say, I just don’t feel the way I want to feel after dating somebody for this long. I don’t think we’re the right match for each other. And you deserve somebody who is like wholeheartedly in with you. And I want to meet someone that I’m wholeheartedly in with and that I feel like is more aligned with me.

Louise Rumball: I love that. And so important what you said about having the conversations. Like I’m saying it with one of my best friends at the moment, which is that she needs to have a conversation with the guy she’s dating, but it’s scary, right? To have that first conversation, particularly when they are either secure or avoiding.

So, you know, that just kind of like the other person is just sort of bumbling along and maybe you’re more anxious and you feel, oh my God, having this conversation is going to make me look like a psychopath. It’s going to make me look crazy. It’s going to make me let blah, blah, blah. So I love the idea of just taking control of that and just having that calm and gentle conversation with them. Okay. So say that things are good, but the other person that hasn’t basically started speaking about you being in a relationship will being that girlfriend will be my boyfriend. How do you raise that conversation around the future or the relationship?

People are worried about being intense. They’re worried about scaring them off. We know objectively and psychologically, the only person that you will ever scare off by having an honest and authentic communication is the wrong person for you. But in terms of sound bites, how can you have that conversation?

It’s quite a difficult one. I think!

Dr. Tari: It can be scary. Yes. Again, this isn’t an easy conversation for me to have it’s scary to talk about, but we’ve been spending a lot of time together. We’ve been investing a lot of time and energy with each other. And so I, I would like for us to talk about like where we’re at. I’d like to know how you see us and where you see us going.

That’s one way to bring it up. Whatever your truth is, whatever the truth is, just say it. You know, we’ve been seeing each other for two months. At what point do you think we should start talking about like labels, and I want to say about exclusivity. When you are investing time and energy with somebody and it starts to feel unaligned or scary that they may be seeing other people that’s when you need to bring it up and be curious about it because you are entitled to know what that other person is doing. And if you don’t want to keep investing with someone who is possibly seeing other people, you need to say that.

That’s not you being pathetic or desperate or needy, that’s you being a mature grown woman saying this is what my boundary is.

Louise Rumball: I feel people today are not having these conversations. Are you dating anyone else? Are you sleeping with anyone else? Do you want to see with anyone else? Where do you want this relationship to go? Do you even want this to be a relationship? Do you think we’re compatible emotionally, physically, sexually, spiritually? People aren’t communicating these things, and that’s why I like pacing because you get to almost, get answers to those questions before you’re six months in, and you’re like, shit, I don’t have any answers to these questions.

I don’t feel like I kind of have these discussions, but I really, really liked this person. So. I think that’s really important than just to speak your truth, do it gently do it kindly and do it authentically. You’ve taught me that it will never scare the right person away. But at the same time, you need to be self-aware with how you’re acting, because sometimes if you’re being super clingy or super needy or superintendents early on, in a dysregulated way, then yeah, it could actually scare the right person off. But I guess that’s where it comes down to the fact that if you are self-aware, you are able to self regulate, and then whenever you show up, you know, you’re showing up in a reasonable, rational way and then their reaction is on them.

Dr. Tari: Right. And it’s really about personal empowerment. And it’s about knowing that you get to choose who you invest your time and energy in. It’s not about waiting to be chosen, which is what a lot of women especially do. We meet someone we like, and then we wait, are they going to choose me? Are they going to choose me? Do they still like me? Do they still like me? This is how I feel that I know this is what I’m looking for. Where are you at with? And healthy men who want a relationship will respect that they will find that attractive.

Louise Rumball: Yeah, we’re not doing that anymore. We’re not waiting to be chosen by other men, women; like we are not. Life is not about being chosen. Life is about embracing who you are and finding someone that loves all of that. 

Dr. Tari: Yeah. Mic drop

Louise Rumball: Mic drop. So I think that brings us to the end of today’s episode.

Another amazing, amazing time together. Thank you for everything you bring to this. I just, learn things every time I get to share my truth. I got to share my friend’s truth. I love the space that we’ve developed together. Thank you. I think that the world needs more pacing. More slow growth and hopefully, some people might have picked that up from today’s episode.

So thank you for everything. again, if you guys are listening, please let us know. If you have had a personal experience with this episode, we always love hearing your stories. other than that, we will speak to you very soon. Bye