Can We Really Have Chemistry With Anyone? – With Johnny Cassell

Johnny Cassell is a London based elite dating and men’s lifestyle strategist, a best-selling author with over 100,000 hours of coaching under his belt, And he’s spearheaded over 200 workshops internationally.

Johnny and Dr. Tari talk chemistry – what is it? And how can we grow it? What is the difference between attraction and chemistry and what is the magic ingredient needed to grow chemistry with someone?

Learn more about Johnny Cassell:

http://www.instagram.com/londondatingcoach

http://www.johnnycassell.com

Buy his book! Elite Seduction: Actionable Tools for Love, Seduction, and Dating – Johnny Cassell

Learn More About Dr. Tari and Dear Dater: http://www.drtarimack.com/deardater

Episode Transcript

Can We Really Have Chemistry With Anyone? - With Johnny Cassell

Dr. Tari: Welcome to another episode of Dear Dater, the PodCast for people who want to change their disappointing relationship patterns and finally access the love they deserve. I am super excited today to welcome Johnny Cassell to our PodCast,

Johnny is an elite dating and men’s lifestyle strategist. He’s a best-selling author with over 100,000 hours of coaching under his belt. And he spearheaded over 200 workshops internationally. Wow. Welcome, Johnny.

Johnny: Yeah, It’s been a long haul.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, it sounds like it. So, Johnny, you and I met on, Clubhouse. I met you in a room, and a lot of what you were talking about really resonated with me. So I’m really happy to have you on this PodCast.

Johnny: Yeah, no, it’s been great to be, share some of the rooms, on there with you also, and you know, Clubhouse certainly is a place to be at the moment. It’s like a, it’s like, a little cocktail party. Yeah, right?

Dr. Tari: Yes, Yeah, it certainly is. So today, we’re going to be talking about chemistry, right?

Johnny: Love this, Yeah, love this.

Dr. Tari: So before we jump into that, tell me a little bit about your story, how you came to be a lifestyle and dating strategist. How did you get into this work?

Johnny: I needed to design a lifestyle for myself that would put me amongst the people that I needed in my life to progress. And, and, also it would give me access to, to the women I’ve, I find attractive. So it comes, it comes from a place of need more than anything, you know? It was my first project, and you know, I got very caught up with the lab culture.
When I was younger, it was a lot of us, and you know, it was just fooling around drinking a bit too much-masking insecurities with, you know, silly little banter games when you go out. And no one in my group of friends had the courage to approach someone they found interest in. And it was around that time, my life, it was a fantasy, because there was no knowledge of what’s the bridge, for me to express interest to someone I’ve you know, on the street at the coffee shop, at the bar, at the club, you know, whatever the landscape is. And I just became really intrigued and curious about human nature, and there was a book I read, and from what I was reading, I could understand for the first time in my life that there are certain patterns in the way that we communicate that formulates success. And that got me super excited. I was like, Holy cow, this isn’t just about pulling a girl at the bar.
You know this is about people. This is people skills. This is about relationships. And if you become a master at building relationships, What can you not do? Everything we know of is built on meaningful relationships you buy, and you trust, of people that, you know, you have a good relationship with. It takes a while for someone to build rapport in order for you to trust them; you know your social circle is built on relationships, your career, and your romantic life. So it just kind of was a big epiphany for me and a big aha moment. And I just went out there and put myself out in many, many landscapes. And I just started to, to, understand the patterns.

Dr. Tari: And do you work mostly with men?

Johnny: I do. I don’t turn women away. I just don’t market towards them. So, you know, my journey is my journey as a man needing this in my life. But what I have acknowledged is by working with a lot of men and going on the journey myself, I do have quite a unique insight that women want to listen to.

Dr. Tari: Uhmm, Got it. I think it’s great to get a man’s perspective.

Johnny: As is a female perspective.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. So what have you learned from men about chemistry in dating? How important is that to men and,

Johnny: it’s every, I mean, it’s, it’s, so this is the biggest misconception because as a man working in this pace, trying to help men get better, you know, the easiest criticism that is thrown at you. The obvious criticism is why you just, you just, teach him to get laid?

Dr. Tari: Hahaha

Johnny: Well, you’re absolutely correct. That is a part of it. And I’d be teaching the same thing if I was working with women. Right. But believe me, like. For what I charge, if they just wanted to get laid, they could pay that same money and get laid a lot, I swear.

Dr. Tari: Alright, Good point.

Johnny: Yeah, so, let’s be rational. Men come to me because, you know, I’ve had, I can’t count on one hand how many men have come to me, and they’ve given me the impression that they’re just here to get the Leg over. Right? And it’s funny enough because I’m thinking of a guy right now; when he came into one of my workshops, I was on the phone to him.
First of all, he goes, he’s a Portuguese guy, and he’s like If I just want to get there. I just wanted to, how do I, how do I go? All right, buddy, let’s calm you down right there. That, that, is gonna happen. But it’s going to happen as, as a byproduct, really enjoying, getting to know someone and them enjoying you.
Dr. Tari: Hmm.

Johnny: Right. And it never really sunk in. And then, of course, on the day of the workshop, he came, and there’s, there’s, a side of my worship we’re actually taking them out, and do, some social integration, you know, call it exposure therapy.

Dr. Tari: Oh my gosh, like you put them on the street?

Johnny: Yeah, Yeah,

Dr. Tari: Oh my gosh,

Johnny: They’re like, We’re all gonna go and get some coffee, and you’re all going to speak to someone on the way.

Dr. Tari: Oh, I love that.

Johnny: So, all of the guys. Did remarkably well, but they all had positive responses from women, you know, some have left good phone numbers and, you know, went on to talk to them. The only guy that didn’t approach was him, and it was because he was put in, so emphasis on the outcome, you know, he’s been so outcome orientated that he wasn’t actually in the present. And I think that on a subject, certain background to the topic of chemistry and what I think men’s problems, the overthinking, that, that, line or that phrase, or that technique that they learned from the guy from YouTube that pulled it off really slick or something they’d read in a blog you’re missing the opportunity to connect.

Dr. Tari: Right,

Johnny: Right. So part of it is to be present. And I’m typically finding this with guys that have run analytical jobs. You know, they do risk assessments, all this kind of stuff in their head. You can’t just jump into things. You can’t be impulsive, but you know, the person you’re speaking to is giving you clues. As to what to talk about, whatever’s coming out of their mouth is a clue of a direction of where to take the conversation. You know, the chemistry comes from the power of the questions that you ask and how actively you’re listening. So I’m finding that a lot of people I’m working with are passive listeners; you know, they’re not in tune. They’re not; they’re not holding eye contact. They’re just not in their head. And there, you know, they’re kind of thinking about what’s the next thing I can say. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. So do you have any sisters? I mean, you know, well, wait, wait, wait a minute.
I mean, she just, I just missed where she, you just, you’re now communicating to her that you’re not listening A and B you don’t really care about connecting with this person.

Dr. Tari: Right. So it sounds like what you’re saying is, chemistry is really, connection. Are they the same thing? Or is the connection a big part of chemistry?

Johnny: Well, I describe it as like an iceberg, right? If you imagine an iceberg, you’ve got the tip. I call that like the surface connection. Anyone can have a surface connection. So how’s the weather chat? It’s the, what do you do, where you from? The Oh, the yawning calm conversation,

Dr. Tari: Oh my God, Yes.

Johnny: Right? But if you want to get below the surface of the iceberg, which I call it, is the area of deep rapport, and that’s what we want. Then you’ve got to listen. And you’ve actually got to, I call this work, the challenge, you’re showing that you’ve listened to what someone said, and you’re asking a question that digs it deeper, digs it beneath the surface, and not a lot of people ask those direct questions. For whatever reason, they might think it’s a bit intrusive. They, it might just not even occur to them that, that, that is what they should do. So the very few people that do have that end done. We tend to hold them quite close. We start to confine them a bit more. We share our secrets. You know, we value their opinions because they’re showing us they’re a good listener and they’ve got time for us. And we know that our favorite subject is ourselves so if you’ve got the ability to do that, then you can make chemistry with everyone. It’s just actually being awake to what does this person need? What does this person board off? Cause I don’t want I’m bored. Or if I’m bored of going out, telling someone my age, where I’m from, what I do, and you know how the weather chat. Like that’s just not going to stimulate me. So I think it starts with getting bored of hearing yourself say the same thing.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: Right? And then your mind just moves into a creative space. You have, thunder the conversation, and you actually create a situation that’s memorable.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. Like I always tell my clients, ask the questions you really want to know. Right? Like, and talk about the things that light you up.

Johnny: That’s exactly it.

Dr. Tari: Don’t just like the small talk, especially when you’re first talking with someone on an app. I mean, it just kills me some of these conversations. They’re not talking about anything. Like how are you supposed to get to know someone, you know?

Johnny: Right, Well, it’s just, like I say, it’s just like a passive conversation. It’s just conversation for conversation’s sake, but nothing’s really been gained out of it.

Dr. Tari: And I think, what you’re talking about is really curiosity, like really being curious

Johnny: Absolutely,

Dr. Tari: about somebody

Johnny: Yes,

Dr. Tari: and who they are and those deeper layers. And I think you’re right.

Johnny: Absolutely,

Dr. Tari: You know, some of us don’t go there. Maybe we don’t talk on that level about ourselves. So we don’t ask other people those questions, but that’s where all the magic is.

Johnny: It really is. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? If we unpack that and explore why, why aren’t we going there? Because if, you know, if we know, if we know we’re bored of having that same run of the mill conversation, why aren’t we just asking questions that we want to hear the answers off, you know, and, you know, as you said, as you said that that was a big unlock for me back in the day of, you know, only ask the questions you want to hear the answer. And when I started going out into social landscapes, I was having a lot of fun with that. That was a great exercise. I was being very risky. I was asking, and I was like, wow, I can ask that. Okay. That was, that was the big unlock for me. It was like, Wow. When you start to realize women are, you know, as sexual, if not more than men, then that’s a huge unlock, you know? I mean, it’s incredible. I mean, and, and I think when you, I think this is a thing as well, I don’t know if I’m specifically speaking to men, women might find this issue as well, but what I’ve, what I’ve come across is. And I noticed in my own journey as well, when I was coming up was you know, one can be afraid of actually introducing sex as a topic or intent of any sort of nature, even though they definitely are attracted to this person in that way, they just don’t know what’s the correct way about it. So they ended up being so polite. It’s actually impolite that they even didn’t even say that they were interested.

Dr. Tari: Yes,

Johnny: So, you know, there you go. You just chose to put yourself in the friend zone; forget about chemistry, you know? She’s never gonna see you as someone that she could potentially jump in bed with because you didn’t turn up as that guy. So take more risks, get more rewards that’s what I learned,

Dr. Tari: Yeah, so how do you like men? I’m interested to hear your perspective; how do you coach men to bring up sex and attraction?

Johnny: It’s a great question. And I think if you feel it’s quite a big step for you, bringing it up, but asking someone, you know, what’s, what’s your fantasy. I mean, that would be quite direct. Right? And you might feel a bit more comfortable taking an indirect approach. Right? So you could be a bit playful with it. You could, you know, you could come back from the bathroom and, you know, hold my God. I can’t believe I just heard what was going on in the cube. I don’t know. I mean, I may be jumping to conclusions, but it was all sorts of, no, I can’t believe it. What’d you think of that? I mean, what’s, what’s your take on, like going out and acting like that? No. So you’re using a situation to bring up the topic, but it’s not directly linked to you. And, but it is because I think you know of you, and you can also say a little cheek grin on your face, holding that eye contact, and they kind of know what you just did, but it’s fun, and it’s playful. So I would use more of like an indirect vehicle to introduce sex as a topic. If you feel like it’s such a big step from where you were, yeah, you gotta be realistic as the way you are.

Dr. Tari: And how soon should men bring that up?

Johnny: That’s interesting. Cause I think when I talk about showing your intent, I think it’s a vibe as opposed to something you say.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: Right. I mean, it’s more exciting if it’s a complete non-verbal vibe. Right because it’s, it becomes a secret, and a language, the only you, to kind of know about in the landscape and it’s not explicit, you know? I could be talking about anything right now. I could be talking about that microphone. I could be looking at that microphone and then looking at you, and I could, I could be, creating like something in my head, and I could maybe slow my voice down, and I could be talking about that microphone.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. Right, right, I feel you.

Johnny: so, that microphone? But you know, when you turn up into an interaction, you might, you might be really excited. It might be talking like this, and I’m talking like this right now in this interview because I got so much I want to share. And I’m just conscious of that. And this time it’s really, really exciting. It’s like, Whoa, slow down, Whoa. Suddenly, slow things down. And I start talking like this? It’s like anything I talk about is not interesting.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, you’re talking about energy, right? Like, the, the, energy, the vibe, the vibration that you’re in, that you’re giving off.

Johnny: Absolutely. That’s fun. That is fun. When you start playing around with that, it’s exciting.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, I like that. That it’s, it’s more a vibe because I think with women, when a guy brings up sex, like right away, like the first time, or, you know, even like the first couple of chats on an app, Or even like on the first state for us, that’s kind of a red flag. It’s like, Oh, this dude is like, he’s only thinking, thinking about sex. Right?

Johnny: haha, A lot of us are. We realize.

Dr. Tari: We realized that, and you know, we are too, but I think, I think like when men lead with that, it’s a little bit of a turnoff for women because then we don’t feel like you really want to get to know us as people. Right. You just want to skip to the sex like that guy you were talking about. Like, that’s just the outcome there.

Johnny: Exactly. So, so, so I think what we can conclude, what we can conclude with that, is we need to master the art, build intention and understand tension doesn’t happen quickly by intention is something that takes time. Right. And that’s the beauty, like creating intention, having the ability to create tension. So whatever way you’re doing it, tension has to be creative.

Dr. Tari: Interesting. So yeah, I think that tension, right as a part of chemistry.

Johnny: Yeah.

Dr. Tari: So what about, like this happens all the time? People talk on the apps, they go meet for a drink, and you know, they’re like, ah, there wasn’t any chemistry.

Johnny: Yeah, you’re not asking the right questions because everyone can have chemistry. Like I practice this, I, I, can have the chemistry of an absolute stranger that I know nothing about time and time again. And, you know, I don’t like to blow my own horn, but I remember a friend of mine. This was before lockdown and is a successful restaurant here. And he invited me to his birthday party. No one I knew was going; the only person I knew was him. I went there, and I spoke to three women, in, in, that venue, and they all said the same thing. Wow. This is the most interesting conversation I’ve ever had.

Dr. Tari: Hmm.

Johnny: And it was constantly getting the signals all night, and it was actually getting a bit awkward, you know, I’ve faced quite, uncomfortable situation for myself. I saw I’ve got to get out of here.

Dr. Tari: haha

Johnny: hahaha, So I guess with great power comes great responsibility. Right? But you’ve got to put them on the stage, not you; it’s just showing that you can’t, everyone’s got a story, everyone’s gone through pain. Everyone’s had a high, and everyone’s had a low. Let’s get to that. Let’s get that out on the table and talk about it because that’s the stuff that I want to talk about. I don’t want to talk about how I know such and such. We can start with that. I’m not going to linger on that.

Dr. Tari: Yeah

Johnny: I want to know what your story is.

Dr. Tari: Yeah

Johnny: Right? You may share with me what you do. Why is that important to you?

Dr. Tari: hmmm,

Johnny: What point in your life did that become important to you? When did that become an issue? Was that an influence that you, that came from your family, or did that come from elsewhere? Oh, actually, I don’t know; it was elsewhere. No, actually, it was my family. Tell me about your family. Now I’m with the family. I’m talking about the family now, I’m talking about the feelings that she experienced and the dominator and Farber and all this kind, you know, I’m in, that place, that chamber of the motion. And if you can get there, then who can you not connect with?

Dr. Tari: Right?

Johnny: Because we all have feelings. I don’t care what your favorite sport is—your favorite book. I want to get to your feelings; I want to talk about that because that’s something we all can relate to. Right.

Dr. Tari: So what about, like, I feel like this happens a lot. So what you’re talking about, asking those deeper questions, forming an emotional connection, you know, I’m really good at that. That’s, I mean, I’m a psychologist, right? Like, I don’t want to talk about all the fluff,

Johnny: Exactly,

Dr. Tari: But I think in my dating history, like the men, don’t give that back to me. In fact, they feel so good, you know, to be seen and heard. And then my relationships have just been lopsided. So what, how do you balance that? Like how, if you grow the skill, how do you assess well? Is the other person curious about me? Have you encountered that at all in your work?

Johnny: I understand. Like if, yeah. And I think if you’ve gone on a journey to get better with your conversation and the ability to build chemistry, it’s not about what you can get back.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: It’s like a, given you, your girlfriend, like a gift on Valentine’s day or birthday. And yet you put in for that, you know, expecting that back.

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: The, the, get back was the feeling, the emotional experience of the gifts, you know? So it’s not about, like what I’m putting in and you know, I’m putting this in. So once I get that equity back, you can’t expect that from someone after the journey that you’ve gone on and everything you’ve learned; I mean, that was important to you to become that person. That you could give, you know, we do all this work on ourselves to give a better experience for someone else. Otherwise, if you put that component in well, you’re not matching me on, on what I’m giving you. Then I think that becomes quite manipulative, You know?

Dr. Tari: Interesting, But it also can become draining, right? Like if you’re the only one giving. And giving and giving, and you fall into that role, and it’s not reciprocated. I mean, I guess then you just set boundaries, or you say I’m not getting my needs met because I also think, right. Like you have to create room to receive, and if you’re not receptive, and I think I probably wasn’t doing that earlier in my journey for sure. But if somebody doesn’t have that same curiosity back. Or the desire to really get to know you on that level, then it probably isn’t going to work.

Johnny: Yeah. We have to really look at the behavior and think, is this person really making an effort, but not, I think when we start having expectations of our partner, then that’s when we’re setting ourself, up for a fall, because then you’re basically, you’re creating a situation where anxiety is now building up because you’ve created something that they need to adhere to.

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: Right. And you know, what’s great is like, remove the expectation and when that person does deliver, that’s a beautiful thing. And I think what we can do is just communicate the needs and our wants, and I love languages and all this kind of stuff. And yes, sometimes we have to pull up partners on the behavior that they’re not doing, and I think that’s something a lot of us Avoid in relationships; it’s pulling each other up on the stuff we’re not doing. If you’re passive with it. And, and your, you know, your response to that is, they should just know they’ve been with me long enough. They should just know. Okay. But do they know?

Dr. Tari: Right. It’s really our job to communicate. I mean, if we can’t communicate our needs, if we’re feeling something and we’re not saying it, then that’s on us. Right,

Johnny: Exactly. Yeah. It’s like at work, right? If you give someone a task to do at work, you have to give them guidelines. So they can deliver that task to the client, but if you sit there and go and just assume they know what to do, what’s in, in your head, then you’re going to get a bad review or a bad testimonial because that’s not been delivered in the way that it should have been because of lack of communication.

Dr. Tari: Totally. Yeah. And I love what you’re saying about giving. You know, showing up to give, because I think a lot of times, I’m thinking about a first date, I think a lot of women sometimes show up like, well, he didn’t do this, and he didn’t do that instead of showing up and just, you know, loving and being yourself and, and seeing what you can add to the situation. And when you’re waiting for somebody else to do something, like you said, that expectation is really just setting you up to fail.

Johnny: Yeah.

Dr. Tari: Right,

Johnny: Exactly. That, that, is it like just, I think if we remove expectations, then we’re going to become a lot more happier.

Dr. Tari: Yeah,

Johnny: Yes, Yes. We’re going to have our arguments, and they’re going to fill out, Oh no, it’s over. We’re going to, we’re, breaking up. No, no, we’re not breaking up. We’re, we’re actually getting our needs out on the table so we can hear each other and we can learn; that’s what an argument is.

Dr. Tari: Right, right. It’s just sometimes a difficult conversation.

Johnny: Yeah,

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: Exactly.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. So. What you’re saying is chemistry is really something we can build, and we can build that with anybody. Right. It’s not just a matter of, so chemistry is different than attraction. What would you say, the differences?

Johnny: Well, like chemistry is something that I feel comes from conversation and the questions that you ask and being able to relate.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: Being able to relate that that’s a big component. And that’s why I say if I can get to feelings, I can relate, you know, or, or the hero’s journey or something I can relate to it, you know?

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: So. But I firmly do believe that we can have chemistry with everyone. I believe it’s a skill. And when I teach this stuff, I’d be very responsible with this because you are unlocking something here; you are unlocking a lot of emotion. You are unlocking someone’s heart. And if you have, you know, I think Bob, Molly said a great quote. I picked up somebody the other day, and he’s like if you’ve got no intention of being that woman, don’t unlock a heart. It was something like that, which really, which really resonates, me. It’s like, that’s so true. And when you’ve got power, and you’ve got influence, wherever it be, you know, you’re a rock star or, you know, you’re, you’re someone that people look up to again, it’s the same thing.

Dr. Tari: So the men that you work with, what are some of the typical reasons they come to? You? In terms of dating and relationships, what is it that a man struggles with?

Johnny: Well, the number one outcome they want to achieve, right, Is companionship. It is compelling. And as I said, like, as we circle back around to that original point, you know? Yeah. Like intimacy is a part of the puzzle, but if guys wanted just that, they could get it elsewhere. It’s companionship. Why have they come to me at this point in their lives? Probably because they’ve sacrificed their social and dating life to get ahead in their career. Now they’re happy where they are in their career. You know, they’re cash-rich, time-poor, and they want to accelerate the learning curve. It might be someone that has come out of a long-term relationship; you know, they might have been divorced. They’re feeling a bit rusty; they’ve got no one to go out with anymore, that social crowd has passed. People have settled down, and so for them, I kind of worked with them, how to design a lifestyle and how to create meaningful relationships and friendships so they can create that social vehicle again. So to speak might be someone that’s, you know, again that the friend zone, I mean, that’s. It’s always going to be there. And again, why, why are people in the friend zone? Because they chose not to show their intent, right? You can like someone so much that you’re tiptoeing around the idea of even saying something. And we spoke about that earlier. Other things, it might be some sort of cultural conflict that happens internally. I spoke in one of the clubhouse rooms there about a story where I worked with a couple of Lebanese guys. They flew over, and they worked with me for a week. And, and that’s where that quote comes earlier when it’s mentioned that you can be almost too, too respectful, that it’s actually disrespectful. And that comes from, you know, their, their traditions and the culture. So for them, they had to learn how to adjust in the Western sort of society. I mean, yeah, we could go on and on, but for me, as you asked that question, I think those are the ones that immediately come to me.

Dr. Tari: Okay. So how can women help those men who feel like they get stuck in the friend zone? Like. How can we send the signals because I think men have it hard. Like, it’s all on you guys to like, oftentimes make the first move or show interest first. And I’m glad I’m not in that position, you know? So how can it be?

Johnny: Okay. I think that when you feel like a guy’s a bit nervous, sometimes a smile. It can take away nerves. You know, I think a smile just shows the, whatever that guy said, it’s been received well, you know, I think guys, you know, guys that they’ve watched the James Bond films and they watched the archetypes of male seducers that we see on, on the movie screens. And they think that they have to land a line like that. Right. In order for it to, to sit well with a woman. And that’s not really—the case. I think, you know, in my experience, women are very sort of forgiven. If you trip over a line or, you know, it’s quite endearing, if anything. So just understand, I think women that I’ve spoken to before, it’s, it’s funny. They think that men don’t have these sorts of problems.

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: And then they think, well, men have problems like, yeah. Yes. We’re human beings.

Dr. Tari: Surprise.

Johnny: So yeah, I just, I just have a bit of empathy, I guess. And even if you’ve got a partner or if you want a boyfriend and some guys have the courage to say something or do something, like give them some encouragement, you just go, you know what, like hats off to you for giving that a go.

Dr. Tari: Hmm,

Johnny: But I’m actually got a partner, but I want to say, just keep doing that because there are women on this and they are looking to be swept off their feet by a guy like you, so words of encouragement there that women do want romance, they do want to be met in all sorts of landscapes and women are actually very strategic themselves position themselves to increase the likelihood of that happening.

Dr. Tari: Hmm,

Johnny: Because there’s, there, there is fed up, as the online platforms as you are.

Dr. Tari: Totally. And I think on the other side, like what I found is, and I’m guilty of this too, is like, when we’re out in the world, we see a cute guy and then we just look the other way, like we freeze, we don’t give him signals, haha.

Johnny: I love the fact that you said that if it puts my mind back to, I did; I did this workshop where it was just only winning. Right. Only women. I was in the lion’s den. It was quite scary.

Dr. Tari: Haha

Johnny: I was like, Oh, they’re gonna raise me a pot,

Dr. Tari: Haha

Johnny: But we’re on the subject of social cues that you can give off to a man to show that you’re interested. And I went around the room, and I just, just, I just want the ladies to share what SIG, when a guy looks at you, right. What do you do in response when you see that? Cause this is something I have to get better at. You know, I was frustrated looking at people in the street and then looking back, and I was like, like, what do I do? I didn’t have the knowledge; I didn’t know what the bridge was.

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: And so one lady, one lady goes, she as well. I look and I, and I looked, down, I go, okay. And then I. I asked another lady we got, what do you do? She goes, well, I look and I, I, I sort of hold my contact. Wow. Okay, cool. Another girl was a bit more lovely. Lady was a bit more confident. She goes, well, I look and I, I sometimes give a bit of a smile, you know. Wow. Okay. A lovely girl says yeah, she looks, and then she just gets a bit embarrassed, and she looks up away. Right. So I go, so, you’re all telling me that when a guy looks at you and you find him interesting too, right? You all have these different responses that communicate that you’re interested because there’s definitely a portion in this room that I wouldn’t be able to say. You’re interested. I would be thinking, Oh, whoops, I shouldn’t be looking at her. And she showed me a signal that she’s not interested. What I learned was, you know, some women have developed confidence. And they get it, and they’ll play it. They’ll be a bit cheeky, though. You know, the whole, the eye contact, they’ll see if anything happens, one might even smile. And that’s what the, the, the more shy women in the audience have to kind of learn. So it was a really great sort of, you know, share we did in that workshop where a lot of women kind of learned what are the strongest social signals that they could be given off. And also for me, my takeaway was, you know, what. There’s the confident girl, and there’s the shy girl, just like there is the confident guy, and there’s the shy guy and, and the shy girl might be a better pick as, as it’s the shy guy. We just need to learn how to play that game. How do we dance with that shy person? How do we make a bridge with them?

Dr. Tari: I love that.

Johnny: Great. I brought that up.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, no, I love that because I think as women, we don’t understand that we have to receive the signals and we have to send some back. We’re just blocking.

Johnny: Yes,

Dr. Tari: We’re just blocking, you know, what could happen. We’re blocking, possibility?

Johnny: What I would say to this, if someone has given me an eye contact, understand that the conversation has already begun. The conversation has already begun because there’s two conversations we’re having; we’re having a non-verbal conversation out of the verbal conversation. So it’s already open. You just need to think about what the next thing is to say. And you know what, we don’t really know if we think that it’s Hey,

Dr. Tari: Hmm, pretty simple. Hi.

Johnny: That’s it, yeah, like hi, All right. Okay. This has happened. Yeah, this has happened at all. Okay. That’s the tension.

Dr. Tari: Hmm, I love that. I love that. So I also hear this a lot. A woman will go out with a guy, and she’ll be like, eh, I didn’t feel anything. And then it’s the question of, do I give him another chance? And it sounds like what you’re saying, and this is kind of what I say too is, see them one more time and try to ask different questions, try to get to know them beyond just the surface. And would you agree with that?

Johnny: Hundred percent, Because that first day, I said earlier, you could be, they could be as nervous as you are going into that date. You know, we’ll make silly mistakes. Maybe we say sleeping guys do say silly things, you know, as do women, I’ve been on some dates, and I’ve just, why do you say that? It was just, was, just nerves,

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: Or, you know, we may be a bit guarded on that first time when we meet someone. So we’re not quite ready to open our hearts and share certain things about a strange person we’ve met, you know? So I always say, yeah, just give someone the benefit of the doubt. Right. Because we’ve all, again, we, we all have that story, but if someone is just really glued and so guarded, that they just, not going there. I mean, I, I can’t spend any more time with that, but I’ve, you know, there just has to be some sort of deep stimulation going on, you know, before one can make love for the body. They’ve got to make love to the mind. So let’s just get our minds playing a dance with each other first.

Dr. Tari: Right.

Johnny: You know

Dr. Tari: Right. So vulnerability, it sounds like it’s such an important piece of this chemistry and connection.

Johnny: Absolutely, yeah. That’s the biggest unlock, and it’s the lock that a lot of us are too scared to unlock because maybe we’ve been hurt in the past. Someone, unfortunately, took advantage of that, but you know what, not everyone is like that, you know, like the past where the juicy stuff is, the juicy stuff is in the Sharon. It really is. And that’s when, you know, I think you’re going to be, it’s going to improve your chemistry. It’s going to improve your, your, lovemaking. You know, the authenticity, the transparency you have of each other, you’re going to be able to have more empathy with each other because you understand what sort of path you’ve both kind of led, you know? So you’re gonna be more conscious of certain decisions and behaviors, what triggers, what doesn’t, it all comes from the opening up.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: And that’s, and that’s, you know, so say we’re talking about chemistry is whole, this whole thing that you and I wanna talk about today was chemistry. And that’s where it is. That chemistry is like where you’re thinking that person knows me on such a deep level that no one else does.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: You know, and that’s was a strong feeling is gonna come.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. And you’re not going to get there. If you just go out and have a bunch of drinks and talk about surface stuff, there might be attraction,

Johnny: Yeah, yeah

Dr. Tari: But it’s not going to last if you don’t go deeper.

Johnny: It’s not, and you’ll get replaced by someone that can go.

Dr. Tari: Ooh. Yeah. I love that. And I just, I’m always so surprised. I shouldn’t be because I’ve been doing this work for so long, but just how people, just how surface they stay in their dating. And then they’re frustrated that it never moves to the next level, but. I think a lot of people don’t understand that there is an X level. Right?

Johnny: Yeah.

Dr. Tari: And we all wanna see, we all wanna be seen and heard, but we have to invite somebody in to see us and hear us in order to really feel that.

Johnny: And in order to let the new person in, we have to let whatever was there go

Dr. Tari: hmm, Say more about that.

Johnny: Well, I think that we can romanticize the, the, what-ifs and buts of someone in our head that either has been there has had a presence in our life or has never, and you can hold on to the romantic idea of that I can get so caught up in that, that you’re missing opportunity left, right and center. It’s been in front of you all this time. Right. So could be an ex-partner or anything, or it could be you can be waiting for that ex-partner to finish with their fiance, or you’re, you’re waiting there on the fence for it. It’s romantic, but is it reality?

Dr. Tari: Right? Yeah. So true. Okay. So as we wrap up this conversation, I was thinking of a question as we were talking, what about. Cause I am so curious to hear a man’s perspective on this because, as women, we talk about it all the time. So how does sex change a relationship for men? Like how soon should you have sex? What happens for men when you have sex? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

Johnny: I love this question because what we know about that happens to women after sex. You know, there’s a lot of chemicals that get results, oxytocin, which is the love chemical and the sense and feel of attachment. And men have that too, you know, it’s not like one way. I think the conversation to be on is, how should we act after we’ve done it? Because if we act all needy, then that’s enough to push someone away. So it’s trying to control your feelings as you’re experiencing these strong chemicals rushing through your body of attachment. Like, well, hold on. Just, just be cool. Just be cool. Like, I just need to be cool right now. And that’s, what’s going to make someone stay in terms of how soon, should you do it? You know, this free date rule has been floating around forever, and I don’t think there’s a hard rule on it. My outlook is when it feels right when you feel like they earned it, right? Because you can create strong chemistry with someone, right? When you feel strong on chemistry, like, wow, this is amazing. We’ve got, I want you, I want you now. I want you tonight. And that can happen. Me. Personally, that’s definitely happened to me. I met someone on the first day of the meeting and became my partner for two years. So I don’t think we should be knocking people if it happens very quickly because I know not just myself, but many stories where it’s been a long-term stand, so to speak. Right? And on the flip side of that, my personal experience of I’ve waited a couple of months, two months. Yeah. It’s hit that. But, but, what I was saying again, is something about round two, there was tension in both situations. And the one where I was, it was two months. I was enjoying the tension. I understood that. Okay. We’re not quite where it needs to be around. I need to get more into that sort of emotional connection, read more tension there, more chemistry there, and it was built and built and built getting to know this person, appreciate this person more than when it happened then. Wow. No, so, I don’t think we should be sitting here saying, Oh, okay, well, when you’ve done this date and this date, you should then give it up. It’s like when you feel like they’ve earned it, you know,

Dr. Tari: Yeah. So if you sleep with somebody, let’s say on the first date, cause I mean, I hear this a lot. There’s sex right away. And then, in my experience, one person gets scared. Like, it just kind of blows everything up, and then it ends if there’s not some kind of deeper connection there, but how did it work? You had sex on a first date. Like sometimes, that does work out. What’s the difference? What’d you say?

Johnny: Consistency- and just being cool about it. Not getting anxious and trying to be quick about putting a label on it.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. Yes. I think a lot of women feel like after sex happens, it turns it into a relationship. And I always say sex does not turn something into a relationship. Right?

Johnny: Exactly, exactly.

Dr. Tari: Yeah,

Johnny: So that example that I gave you that said that go, can we go from the two years after that, I remember I was actually consulting a female client at the time, whilst that was going on in my private life. And I, and you know, the female clients would ask me, well, what about you, Johnny? What’s going on? And I go, well, you know, there is this person right now, and I’ll tell you what if she plays her cards. Right. Which I think she has, she’s going to get me because she was just being cool, calm, collected. And there was just a rhythm of us communicating, and, and seeing each other; it wasn’t; she was allowing here’s a big bet. She was allowing me to miss her.

Dr. Tari: Oh, yes. Yes. And that’s the thing I feel like for a lot of women if they have sex too soon or before. Well, maybe it isn’t even a time thing, but it’s that kind of desperation. And I say that with love because I used to be that woman, it’s that like, I need this, I need this to happen. I need this to become something. I need him. Instead of just having the peace within ourselves that, you know, we can just let things flow if it’s supposed to happen, it’ll happen. Right?

Johnny: And if, and if both, if both players on the call, you know, have got that rally going.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: Just, just trust that, take a helicopter view on the situation.

Dr. Tari: Yeah.

Johnny: If Sometimes you can be so close to the elephant. You can’t see around it.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I think that speaks to why it’s so important for everybody to be doing their own work. So they’re not, like desperately looking for validation in a relationship, you know? So when we meet somebody who could be someone special, we don’t rush it. We’re not desperate. We’re not scared; fear isn’t running the show. We’re just. We can be with ourselves and let things flow, right?

Johnny: Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think like this, might be a controversial bit of advice, but for me, I feel that if you’re single, you always want to have a few plates spinning at the same time. And if one drops one drop. But I think if there’s someone, in that, in your orbit that you really like. I think to safeguard yourself is just, have a few more that you’re talking to, that you can divert some attention away from because it can be very overwhelming if you’re struggling to control those urges and those chemicals that are rushing through your body and just throwing them all at one person.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, I agree. And that can actually help the chemistry. Right? If you have time to miss someone they’re not always readily available to you, that builds that chemistry and tension.

Johnny: Yeah. So I’d say at the early stages when you haven’t got a label on it, and you’re just focused on sort of building the attraction, so you’re building the tension with each other and the emotional investment, I would say, have a handful of flirty friends in your orbit that you can just flow that kind of energy to them, rather than just the one.

Dr. Tari: Right. I love that. Any last thoughts on chemistry?

Johnny: Yeah, drop the flirty friends when you’re making it official.

Dr. Tari: An Important part.

Johnny: That’s the big important part.

Dr. Tari: Yeah, great advice.

Johnny: Any final thoughts on chemistry? Well, it’s like what we said earlier. It’s like when you really learn the art of connecting deeply with someone, just be responsible because you’re now playing with emotions, right? If you’re going out on the, and it’s the quest of intimacy with multiple partners that you’re after. Okay. I think you’ll be surprised how many people are open to that. You know, what’s not nice is leaving someone in a gray area; people want transparency. People want to know where they stand so they can garden and control their emotions in the correct way we all have needs. Let’s just be a bit more transparent as to what this is.

Dr. Tari: Yeah. I think that’s so important. So important. So thank you so much for this conversation.

Johnny: That’s been great.

Dr. Tari: It’s been amazing. I always love to hear the man’s perspective. So, where do people find you if they want to hire you?

Johnny: Yeah. Johnny ksl.com Instagram it’s @Londondatingcoach or call Clubhouse.

Dr. Tari: And you wrote a book,

Johnny: That’s right. At least seduction, actual tools for love Baten and seduction. It’s on Amazon, and yeah. It’s been a great milestone to achieve that. And it was just something that I needed to get out there, to the people that can’t access me, in terms of the training fees. One of my missions is to get that message out there to as many people as I possibly can, and the book was a tool that could achieve that.

Dr. Tari: That’s great. So elite seduction and you can get it on Amazon.

Johnny: Yeah, yup.

Dr. Tari: Awesome. Thank you so much, Johnny.

Thanks for tuning in to Dear Dater. This is Dr. Tari, reminding you that if you want love, it’s meant for you.