How Not To Be Codependent In Your Relationships – with Barry Selby
Dr. Tari and Relationship Attraction Expert and Spiritual Counselor Barry Selby outline what Codependent Relationships look like and how we can begin to change our codependent mindsets and create healthy interdependent relationships instead.
Barry Selby is affectionately known as the Love Doctor to his audience. With over 30 years of training and experience, including a master’s degree in spiritual psychology and 20 years as a spiritual counselor, he’s helped thousands learn to love themselves and live in wholeness.
Barry is a passionate champion for the divine feminine, helping strong successful women create balance in love, life and business.
He awakens women to own and express their feminine majesty in love and in the world. And he helps his clients heal their hearts, sourcing their own love and support. So they may fully embrace their magnificence and help them attract relationships that equal who they really are as a masterful relationship attraction expert.
Find Barry Selby online!
YouTube: (91) Barry Selby – YouTube
Find Dr. Tari online!
How Not To Be Codependent In Your Relationships - with Barry Selby
Welcome to Dear Dater, the PodCast for people who want to change their disappointing relationship patterns and finally access the love they deserve. My name is Dr. Tari Mack, and I’m a psychologist and celebrity love coach. My journey has been one from disconnection and loneliness to love and miracles. And I want this podcast to give you the tools and awareness to help you create and access the love you want in your own life. What we yearn for is meant for us. So if you yearn for love, you’re meant to have it; when we change, our relationships change. I’m so glad you’re here.
Dr. Tari: I’m Super excited to introduce my guests today, Barry Selby. Barry is a passionate champion for the divine feminine, helping strong successful women create balance in love, life and business. He awakens women to own and express their feminine majesty in love and in the world. And he helps his clients heal their hearts, sourcing their own love and support. So they may fully embrace their magnificence and help them attract relationships that equal who they really are.
As a masterful relationship attraction expert, Barry is affectionately known as the love doctor to his audience. With over 30 years of training and experience, including a master’s degree in spiritual psychology and 20 years as a spiritual counselor, he’s helped thousands learn to love themselves and live in wholeness. Welcome Barry. So excited to have you here.
Barry Selby: It’s my pleasure to be here. Thanks for the invitation. I love this.
Dr. Tari: Everything you talk about just resonates so much with me and the work that I do.
Barry Selby: It’s a good thing to have this overlap because it’s nice to be meeting people who also do the work cause it’s feeling daily and does it feel like, oh, that’s where that cross to bear is no, there’s more people doing this and the more the rest of there are the better.
Dr. Tari: Yes. I totally agree. It’s so nice to be able to pass the mic, and have somebody else
Barry Selby: Exactly
Dr. Tari: Say some brilliant stuff.
Barry Selby: And say things that we don’t maybe don’t know, things to confirm what we already know or say things we don’t know cause we go, oh, I like that one as well.
Dr. Tari: Yes. Oh gosh. I’ve learned so much. I’m learning so much. It’s awesome. So today we’re going to be talking about codependency whichI’m excited to talk about this topic, because it’s so needed. But before we get there, I’m wondering if you could share a little bit about your own journey and how you landed in this space of relationships and love,
Barry Selby: Well, a couple of things. I’ll keep it short because I’ve had a quiet journey.
Dr. Tari: Right.
Barry Selby: But, Reggie means being raised in England and coming from a reserve upbringing, family, I didn’t have much understanding of emotional pieces or results were actually raised in a very co-defendant environment but were nicely my parents were so immeshed when my mother passed away in 2012 and when we were at the memorial service and my brother and I, and my dad. He was always a strong, like leader of the family running everything. But when she was gone, he basically collapsed his energy. He deflated it’s like he lost all his navigation guidance, anything like that.
And that was an indication when no, that was 2012. And I already knew what was going on with my own journey at that point. But back when I was younger, I had no idea that there was another way of doing things. And so that was one of the illustrations that happened in my early dating life. I had a lot of short and fun, but then dysfunctional relationships, because I was basically living the way my parents lived in relationship, just very codependent. And one of the things I’ve really discovered was my parents looking back now with 2020 hindsight. My parents Never argue in front of the kids, know the stoic, reserved, unemotional, stiff upper lip english family. There was no yelling going on. We didn’t do that. It wasn’t Italian, but it meant also that when I was in a relationship, I didn’t know that you can actually have an argument and survive in a relationship because I knew, was, argument or relationship.
And so my relationship always ended usually with an argument because she would get upset with me wherever I was dating and she would leave in an upset mood and I’d just sit there going well, I basically was stuffing everything. I wasn’t unaware of it. I was just stuffed,everything so that’s the way I was wired. So then fast forward through several relationships in several years, this was back in the end of 2006. I went through the third relationship paradigm in a row. And this one was basically where I was dating a very tough woman and I’m very attracted to strong, powerful women is one of my favorite things. But I didn’t know, it was, I was a woman who were, living more in the masculine than I was cause I didn’t know what that was at the time. And the third on the row, will be the break up, because she told me exactly what I was doing wrong. She was very clear about that, but I didn’t know what to do about it. I had my mustard, green spirits, psychology, and a spiritual counselor for years. I didn’t know about this thing, cause she wouldn’t be a metro man like a, grandfather, she went to some tough guy. And the funny thing was the man she was in the middle of divorcing when we started dating we’re very similar. I wonder why. We can get to that one at some point. But for me, the thing was that I didn’t know what I was missing. And at that point, I had done all this work. I had, been to these seminars and training, like I’ve got to go back and do another seminar. What should I do? So basically it was internally going, God, give me a sign, show me something, help me with, give me a clue, something.
So within three months I met this beautiful woman at that point. It’s on the people, women, wasn’t my comfort zone, but she basically had such a globe out here. I like she had a neon sign over her head saying, talk to this woman. So when it’s totally cold and I didn’t know anything about her and said excuse me, but you’re glowing wherever, where did you come from? Which wasn’t aligned, but she loved it anyway.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: But she just came back from this retreat with this group of people coming out of sand and pandas out of Vancouver that talks about this polarity because I went to this the next chance to head us, check out their work. They had a one day worship I went to and they started explaining all these things. I’m like, I didn’t know this. I didn’t know that. Oh, that’s why I’m out of alignment because it was talking about the Metro mindset versus the masculine mindset and also how women and men have different stages of evolution in relationship. And when I started understanding where I hadn’t got a clue about the next level above mine, I became like a hungry Wolf, Homer. They get every Mosul of that and I dive into the work. And so I studied with several teachers and I’ve been teaching now for the last 12, 13 years. So that’s the death notice version of my journey.
Dr. Tari: Wow. Wait, you were, you said metro versus
Barry Selby: Macho sorry English accent, like metro man.
Dr. Tari: Ok got it, we’re just talking about your accent. Okay. Got it. Got it.
Barry Selby: Yeah, cause masculine, very different things. Certainly my book had been, also my understanding because I grew up in England. I didn’t want to be a Metro type. That was the worst type of man I could see growing up because I was in my high school and I was bullied in high school by metro kids, boys that were like tough kids. And I couldn’t be like that. And when I’m going to beat up other kids, that wasn’t my thing. And so I softened and softened, cause I didn’t know it was the third choice. It was like metro or meek, and so understanding what masculine men was which, is about both of those in my understanding, it’s been my joy to live in that place ever since.
Dr. Tari: Wow. I always love hearing about people’s journeys and what gets them here because our journeys really ended up giving us so much wisdom that we can then share with other people. Not always that the journey is fun, but
Barry Selby: Oh no. I would say to more clients like, if you’re happy, where you are now, you gotta be thankful for what came before, because it got you here. At the same time, it doesn’t mean the road was smooth and joyful the whole way
Dr. Tari: Right. No, that’s not how life works.
Barry Selby: One of the things on, be on the drop on the back of that, because in my bio, as you mentioned, I’m a passionate champion for the divine feminine. The reason I say that is because when I started doing the work with, being in my mask, my masculine place, living from my heart as a man, I started discovering, cause, of what shows I was in was with women doing the feminine work is I started seeing women when I saw women and mess. And in fact, my first experience of this and the post-workshop, I took. We had the men and women, would go to different rooms and work on masculine and feminine practices through the weekend. Brian, my Jewish background with minimum side women on the others, but it was what I saw was when the women came back on the last break, like they’d been deeply, or weekends.
Same as we had. I saw this, all the women standing across from us and it was like a wall of feminine estate and it broke through every single barrier I had. I basically in, that we were standing there holding a mask in this space internally. I was on my knees in worship. Because I started realizing how much women’s power in the feminine was such a gift to the world.
And of course I hadn’t dated women like that before. Cause I did a woman in their masculine looking in hindsight,
Dr. Tari: Yeah
Barry Selby: But I dedicated my life to that service because I see how much we don’t honor that in the world.
Dr. Tari: Wow. So it’d be a whole other episode.
Barry Selby: That could, yes.
Dr. Tari: Wow. Okay. Let’s talk about codependency, right? Barry, what is codependency? Let’s start there. How would you define codependency?
Barry Selby: I would say codependency is really a combination of two things. One of which is we don’t think we’re holding completely as we are. We think we’re losing, missing, absent something, and they think that somebody else would give it to us or fix it for us or provide it for us. So it’s really, it’s giving our power away in some ways, but it’s also putting our trust in necessary things that we may not really need to be trusting my bad relationships.
Dr. Tari: So giving our power away. And what was the first part you said?
Barry Selby: Not feeling like we’re deserving or we’re not filling, we’re complete ourselves.
We’re raised in the paradigm breaking of the relationships of 50-50. None of us are half a person and genetically rule whole people, but we keep thinking we’re not complete. And so we keep looking for the next thing. We’re trained by our culture and the media and the marketing and everything advertising is you’ll be better when you have the app products or you’ll feel better when you have this car or this new toy, whatever that is. And it’s train is teaching us that we’re not okay, unless we have that thing, that sense of like you gotta to the new phone or the new account or the new, whatever that is, is attacking that part of us that thinks we’re not complete.
Dr. Tari: Yeah,
Barry Selby: It’s okay to have those things, but don’t make that your happiness point.
Don’t make that the provider of your fulfillment?
Dr. Tari: I always say make sure you stay, your own home base. Because I think in codependency, right? We make the relationship or, the other person or homebase. We’re not okay. Unless they’re okay. Yeah. So how does it show up? What does codependency look like?
How do we know if we have those tendencies or if we’re in a codependent relationship?
Barry Selby: The challenge with codependency is that most people think of things that are codependent as being romantic, because there’s this presumption about relationship, that is the other person’s joke to make us happy because when they make us happy, that means they love us. And that means that he was great, but it’s codependent. You know that too. One of my favorite quotes is from Jeremy McGuire, the movie, which is you complete me, whichever in laws and the women’s swollen over that. It’s like he said, you complete me. That’s all, it’s amazing. No, it’s not
Dr. Tari: A buzzer sound
Barry Selby: Exactly, because she’s basically saying that she’s not complete, which is a lie.
And so romance traditionally is this, is an imeshment. It’s this level of dysfunction where the one way, is it talks about in one of my videos is just like basically giving somebody else your puppet strings and acting like a puppet, because if their way of treating you generates your feelings, meaning that if they’re happy, you feel happy. If they’re upset, you feel upset. You’re not in control of your emotions anymore. You’ve given them the puppet strings, the controls of your feelings. And frankly, nobody I think would want to live in a way where they don’t have their own dominion of themselves, like a home basis. You said?
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I think you’re right. I think a lot of us are taught. That’s what love is. That’s what love feels like. And that we’re not being loving. If we’re not tending to other people’s feelings of somebody else’s feeling bad or sad or disappointed or angry, and we’re still okay. That we’re unloving, we’re uncaring.
Barry Selby: It absolutely is the validation piece. Because we don’t, because we haven’t been trained. Also have been trained to validate ourselves. I mentioned earlier about the, bits to macho masculine jog. Imagine a second, because what it really is for many of us that are caring people is we’re afraid of being too. We get testicles. And if I take care of myself and put myself first, the whole thing about self love and self appreciation for a lot of people is that means I got egotistical and that’s bad. Yes it is. If you think about the fact that the ego is not working, talk here. When you start to care for yourself in a very caring, compassionate, loving way, what you’re doing is your whole being, you’re taking care of your whole self. And I’d like to talk about matchup versus masculinity as Metro is the neck up ego, driving ourselves to do what we want, regardless of anybody else, one relationship we usually, unless you’re in an unhealthy relationship, you’re with somebody who is actually doing for you, not for themselves, but neither one of those is actually healthy.
Dr. Tari: No
Barry Selby: The masculine man, the way the, one of my teachers described, which I love a masculine man is driven from his arts, but then with a strong spine so he has power and he’s being, and he’s got focus and clarity, always up to what else he has compassion and care for those around him.
Dr. Tari: Wow.
Barry Selby: No, a woman, a feminine she’s driven by her heart. That’s automatic men have to learn. Men would have to remember that because we’re not as connected to our house houses. Women usually are, so for women to own the feminine is easier when they remember the heart and live from that place. But they’re recognizing that when you’re living from your heart, it’s not a lack of place. It’s a whole place. As I’ve said, as we’ve talked before, I said, we live in, we love from our overflow because they’re gonna remember that we already hold complete themes, even though we’ve been trained otherwise by society and by our families and by everything else. It’s when we come back to the place of going, I am okay. As I am saying, I love myself. Isn’t I, struggling myself on bedding everybody else. No, I love myself enough not to suffer from somebody else.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I think what you said about this fear of being selfish, I also think, and you alluded to it. There’s this fear of abandonment I think if we start to focus on ourselves, if we make sure we’re okay. Then what’s going to happen to the relationship because I think a lot of us, myself included this as part of my journey, is understanding that my value does not come from what I give and I don’t have to earn love or work for love. Oh,
Barry Selby: Yeah. No love is automatic in this, in the sense that it’s who we are already and who we’re being. And the challenge for some people when they’re single, is that it was looking for that relationship to me and feel whole just that same thing. And yet the thing is, and that’s what I’ve been working on for my journey, has been owning my love in the sense of like, enjoying being single and being okay. Like my life is fulfilled as a single person, whenever in a relationship. It doesn’t replace any of that. It adds to it.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: Yeah, because again, relationships are 50-50 is 100-100.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: So recognizing when you’re in a relationship. It’s really adding to who you already are, not feeling any gaps you think you have.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. I watched some of your videos and you talked about, which I totally agree with being a psychologist, how our childhood patterns, and what we learn, like our role in the family, what we learned about love, how that can lead us to these codependent ways. Like for me, I was naturally empathic. And I was raised by really young parents who are amazing, but not emotionally attuned to themselves, not emotionally attuned to me. So I learned to constantly be taking the emotional temperature of everybody in my family so that I could feel safe and loved. And so that’s what I started doing. My adult relationships all the time. Are you okay? Is he okay? How are we doing? How am I doing? Is the relationship okay? It’s exhausting.
Barry Selby: Absolutely. And that’s the thing is that parents aren’t trained in this. So of course now you notice those are the old kids. You can treat your different paradigm that you were raised with because you’ve learned along the way as the gift of this work. Is that when we learn this, we don’t pass it onto the next generation.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: I have a background in spiritual psychology, my graduate degrees in that. And we talked about that, that we’re spiritual beings having a human experience. And so recognizing that we already hold, especially later in life, we can go back and look at our childhood and go, yeah, see, I did the best I could be what I knew at the time. I don’t have to keep doing that anymore.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: We can be free.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. So how do we take steps toward that freedom towards breaking the codependency? What does that look like?
Barry Selby: First of all, seek somebody who knows what they’re doing to help you like you all right, but truth is, it comes back to first of its awareness. The first step to any sort of transformation is awareness and becoming aware that when somebody does something and you would get upset that you don’t have to be upset about it. Because it’s because of the thing about it and it’s quote, Eleanor Roosevelt. What you think of me is none of my business, the understanding is that when somebody, even somebody who’s, your intimate partner is upset.
It may not be because of something you did to don’t take on the responsibility automatically. First of all, it was the first step,
Dr. Tari: Even if they say it’s because of something you did, you’re not responsible for somebody else’s feelings.
Barry Selby: No, because I think if you did something wrong, Then you can fix that piece, but that’s not to do with their emotional baggage. Their emotional upset is their emotional upset. What you did was in, if that person you were with, we say this, it was more emotionally mature. They may not be necessarily as upset. They might be upset because something happened. But if they’re, if they’ve done their work too, they can still be upset, but they’re not upset about what happened. Not upset about you.
Dr. Tari: Yes.
Barry Selby: And to differentiate behavior from personality is a key part of this work. know, In the forgiveness work I do with my clients is really understanding what you’re forgiving is the behavior. Because the person themselves is okay, but it’s the behavior that was upsetting. That was the thing that you judged.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: So that’s the thing with this work. You just start learning that when people get upset that they’re upset. You’re okay.
Dr. Tari: Yes.
Barry Selby: Because a lot of us are wired, that when somebody is upset around us. We take it on. I think somehow we did something wrong. Therefore we’re responsible again because we give them emotional control.
Dr. Tari: Yes. And I always try to teach people. We are not responsible for other people’s feelings, even if they’re trying to hand us that responsibility.
Barry Selby: Yes,
Dr. Tari: Because everybody has their own buttons and triggers and sensitivities. So when we’re in a relationship, we want to be curious and sensitive to our partners. But just because somebody is saying don’t ever do that again, or I don’t like that, you have to be really honest with yourself. Is that something, is that feedback that fits for me? Is that something I want to look at or change or not? Because it’s not our job to keep people happy.
Barry Selby: Right.
Dr. Tari: Sometimes it’s the other person’s work,
Barry Selby: Indeed. One of the guests we have is you have the ability to say no.
Because that’s the other part of the bank. Codependency is when a lot of us have been trained to say yes all the time.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: So we keep saying yes to things. Oh, I’ve lived this one too much.
Being self identified as a people pleaser, which is one of my experiences through my teen years. I was bullied in high school, as I mentioned, and it pushed me into a place where I was not trusting other people. So I had to keep pleasing them to make them happy so that they would trust me, and also that I can be safe with trusting them. And that was a very rickety, uncertain part to follow. But it served me for several years. And so to please, people have to keep saying yes, because the idea that the way I was wired was if I say no to somebody I’m risking their disdain or they’re upset because they didn’t do what they wanted. Therefore, they might be upset. Therefore I would be in trouble. And that’s one of the codependent loops, so to speak. So saying no. I, especially with my clients, that I’m teaching this now more often say no more than say yes, just to practice it.
Dr. Tari: Yes.
Barry Selby: You know, let’s get back to, somebody said, I said, no earlier I’m still yes. Now if he wanted to, but not out of need to please them out of freedom to choose these by saying no. What you’re saying, in fact you’re saying yes to yourself, which is one of the biggest gifts.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I love what you’re saying. I think another thing you can do is. You know if you’re always saying yes, if that’s your default, you can say, let me think about it. That’s a step in between, let me think about that. And then you can think about, is that something I actually want to do? Or am I doing it out of people, pleasing? Yeah,
Barry Selby: Absolutely.
Dr. Tari: So important people pleasing, woof I’m in recovery. I’ve come a long way, but
Barry Selby: I’m pretty good at it now, but I’ve done this, I’ve definitely missed that along the way. Again not perfect. And all of the stuff I’m talking about is practice. It’s not, there’s not, perfection in the practice. It’s not about being perfect in any way, shape or form, because we’re gonna, we’re gonna screw up along the way.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. That’s part of it.
Barry Selby: And it’s okay.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. So awareness you said is the first step, and I’m hearing having compassion and giving yourself room to struggle a bit
Barry Selby: And also, in the concepts about saying no versus saying yes is think before you speak. That sounds so silly to say this, but in a lot of ways, what happens is we are in such an autopilot because it’s codependency is a kind of an autopilot function is that when we take dominion back where we become aware, we can, we can, when someone asks something, we can stop from it and go, okay, what did they already asked me to do? Do I have to say yes to that? And if so, why am I saying yes now, obviously it sounds a long winded, but especially if someone’s, it’s easy when somebody emails you or text you or leaves you a voicemail, not when we’re in front of face to face conversation, because you can say, give me five minutes to think about it, because that’s what you’re really doing. People who like taste back immediately when somebody texts them. So yes, I’ll do what you asked for. Is that really going to serve you now? If it is great, go for it. No problem.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. I love that question. Is this gonna serve me?
Barry Selby: And again, but it’s also again, not egotistical. It’s out of self support.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Yeah. How does self-support, self-love, self-care, how does that play into.
Barry Selby: The challenge, the thing that co-dependencies we give all that power to everybody else by pleasing them, making sure they’re happy so that they will like us. So we’ll be okay. That loop. So when you start to do things that are self loving, self care, self support, self trust, all these different things. And then there’s a whole plethora of things that we talk about. Is that our reliability and our reliance, self gets stronger. And so anything we do in the world, when we do, help other people, it comes from a place where we can give comfortably, I, one of the things I did was in a seminar. My first time I taught back in 84, they had three grand rules and one of the grand rules was, take herself so you can then take care of others. She didn’t start the way it was something else they bolded into taking care of and then taking care of others. And when I heard that the first time it was like, oh, that makes sense. Oh yeah, totally. It took me about four or five times of praying, but that’s got to be, hang on a second. I do it backwards. I’d say, take care of other people first, then take care of myself.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: Which again, codependency. If the model of the airplane where you put your oxygen mask on the first week one child went on that’s. That is a survival thing. That’s also true interdependence versus codependency.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Yeah.
Barry Selby: So, recognizing that we can take care of ourselves first so that we can more effectively take care of other people. That’s very healthy.
Dr. Tari: It’s, I, a lot of people say, oh, I can do that?. Or it’s no, that’s your job. Your job is to take care of you. That is your number one job, because everything else flows from that. And, I love what you’re saying because when we’re in a codependent relationship or people pleasing, we get so depleted, we eventually, we’re just pouring from an empty cup because nobody’s pouring into us, including ourselves.
Barry Selby: Absolutely.
Dr. Tari: And this just made me think about too, like in a codependent relationship or one person let’s say has an addiction, or one person is really struggling. And so we feel like, oh, it’s gotta be about them. What would you say to that?
Barry Selby: I’m gonna be careful. I say this. I don’t wanna upset certain people, but the thing is, if somebody is dealing with such self-destructive, oftentimes we want to save them because they’re the one we love. They’re our favorite person. But the realization is that to say them remaining to help them get help from somebody who’s more professionally skilled than we are. First of all, and secondly, as I mentioned, taking care of, so firstly, and taking care of others.
If I was in a relationship with somebody who was going through that sort of challenge and I was pretty well managing and helping them I’d get buttoned down.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: That means I couldn’t be there for them ultimately.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. It’s so true. And I think what I want people to understand is you can’t change anybody, you can’t save anybody. Someone is only going to change if they want to change and be, if they’re willing to do the work and you can’t give them either of those things.
Barry Selby: No. At the same time, you, obviously it’s time. There’s going to need to be circumstances where the emergency is something else. We stepped right in right away.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: It’s not you say, oh, you broke your arm. Give me two hours to figure it out. It’s no, we don’t mean that. These are talking about principles here, but there’s obviously caveats and variations and extremes about this too. So understand that I’m talking about this as a holistic piece, not like saying, never say
Dr. Tari: Yes. Don’t be a cold hearted person.
Barry Selby: Exactly.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: Because I think it’s just to be, just to be transparent as a man and I love being the hero to my girlfriend when I’m in a relationship. I’m single at the moment, but when in a relationship, it is like to be praised and loved for being the hero is a great thing, but if I keep doing it to get the love and don’t do it to take, don’t do it take on myself first. It’s self-defeating ultimately it does end up cause then she’s not seen through it. First of all, most women are more intuitive and secondly, I’m not able to maintain it because I’m just continually giving until I end up burning out.
Dr. Tari: Yeah, it’s so true. And there’s such a fine line between, I think, supporting and loving and enabling.
Barry Selby: Yes. But the big words now
Dr. Tari: Let’s just get to it because I think a lot of times people think they’re loving and they’re supporting, but what they’re doing is, they’re interfering with the other person being able to struggle or do their own work.
Barry Selby: And the challenge also is, and I actually have. In my book, I talk about the rubber band in relationship, the paradigm we have, where basically when, especially if we’re somebody who’s doing the growth work, we’re studying and what we’re doing and upon it, isn’t, there’s a temptation to try to fix them because we know better now, but that’s, that is interfering in their process, but it’s almost you really have a choice point because what you’re trying to do, I know is to approve you still love them. And also you want to have things come up to where you are, but they don’t elevate their consciousness to your level, unless they do it themselves. You can’t push them there. Yeah. And then the rubber band paradigm it talks about is how, and this is the thing I’ve discovered in my own journey. Having been with us in the growth journey for years is that we’re in a relationship to have a certain tension in them, in a rubber band that is between them. One more per person starts to grow, to elevate, to transform their lives through healing, personal growth, psychology therapy, whatever it is, their paradigm shifts. And it puts a great attention on that relationship and it could be romantic. It could be just friendship. It could be a business relationship, even at some point, that tension can be so great. One of three things has to happen. One thing is that the other person has to move up and grow. It was to a level equivalent to that, which is why sometimes bus, must go out and help fix them. So they’ll raise.
The second part is, which is rare as the person who’s done the growth will choose their relationship over their own personal journey and go back to where they were. Happens once in a while. It’s not pleasant to see, because it’s almost like you’ve seen the light, you’ve seen that wonderful choice and you go, no, I’ll settle for what I have being comfortable with, the smallness most of the bigness and the third option is that the person who’s growing keeps growing the bus isn’t doesn’t and the relationship ends.
Dr. Tari: Yup.
Barry Selby: And I have released a lot of friendships. That, where I was doing a lot of the growth work and my friends were still going to the pub drinking beer or doing drugs. And I was like, that’s not my paradigm.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Oh God. I’m so glad you bring this up because it’s what I see so often in my work with clients and I’ve been there too, where it’s like, there’s this fear of losing the relationship, this fear of moving on and yet our job here is to grow and expand and transform and, keep accessing these different levels of joy. And it’s sad, right? There’s loss involved often when we expand and grow, because not everybody can come with us or not in a place where they’re ready to come with us.
Barry Selby: There is a level of grief that happens, because you start to realize that you’re giving up some things that you were comfortable with before.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: But one of the secrets is when you do this work, you start to become more attractive.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: If that person really wants to be with you, they’re going to go, wow, that person has transformed so much. I wanna become more like them. And of course, as long as they do work for themselves, not to do it for you. Cause that’s, again, this is a trap. The other way around codependency is to really, they start going, whatever she’s doing, I want to do the same thing. That one, I said when I met that woman, it was glowing. Like I wanted some of that. She was very attractive. Wasn’t I didn’t want a day with her. But I wanted to go, okay, whatever you’re doing, I want to find out more about that. That was interesting. So that’s what led me to the work. So you can be a light to other people in a sense, and certainly be a magnet to the relationship you wanna have. If you become more fully embody, who you really meant to be.
Dr. Tari: Totally. Yeah. The thing that I see all the time is when people do have the courage to keep growing and they say goodbye to certain relationships or they grow beyond those, then they attract people who have that same light,
Barry Selby: And they go, what was I worrying about?
Dr. Tari: Yes. Yes. The bully we could see into the future.
Barry Selby: That’s the thing, it’s true. Yeah. That is we do get into that place of being comfortable. We know, because we don’t know what’s out there, that’s that comfort zone and experience of being safe in the comfort zone and like we, stepping outside that place of it’s uncomfortable, but you don’t know how basic it’s going to be to get there.
Dr. Tari: Yes. Yeah. And so many people will choose safety over happiness, because the, fear.
Barry Selby: Oh, yeah.
Dr. Tari: If you are in a relationship where you’ve been seeing it as your job to caretake, or, put your wellbeing to the side, to focus on getting this person help or being a support to them, you may have people in your life who support that idea. And so if you start focusing on you, they may start to tell you things like, oh, that’s selfish, or what about your partner? What are. What’s he or she going to do without you? And the truth is that’s not your responsibility. You can love somebody and not choose to stunt your own growth or waste time trying to give them an answer when you don’t have it.
Barry Selby: Absolutely. One of things I really tell my clients is what I call self honoring choices, does, the choice I make on it, who I am. That’s not ego to go, that’s self-respect
Dr. Tari: Yeah, and self-love
Barry Selby: Indeed it is.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. We’ve been talking about self-loving in Clubhouse together.
Barry Selby: Yeah. We have one of my favorite subjects.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: I teach in another classroom called self love revolution. A friend of mine posts that we’ve been business partners, and she’s a self-love coach. And so mine in a lot of ways. And that’s the thing for my work over the last few years. My relationship. My relationship coach has been my client’s touch mate relationship with my female clients. Every time I work with them, we will get to the point where it’s so fantastic at first, and so self-love is if you want it, here’s the simple thing. You can have a healthier relationship with somebody else you’ve gotta have a relationship with yourself. So love yourself enough so that somebody is gonna love you the same way.
Dr. Tari: Yeah, because you cannot accept a level of love greater than the level you have for yourself. Damn it. I tried so hard. I tried so hard to bypass that earlier in my life
Barry Selby: Because we were always trying to love somebody else enough to think they would love us back, which is that co-defendant paradigm again?
Dr. Tari: Yes.
Barry Selby: So flip the script the other way and love yourself enough. So somebody can love you the same way. It’s that level.
Dr. Tari: Then you’re talking about, brings us to this idea of receiving, and if we never allowed space for somebody else to pour into us or to give to us, or tend to us, I’m speaking from personal experience. We may not even think that’s possible.
Barry Selby: The thing for me, this is my personal experience as we noticed here. We’re not sure if we’re deserving of it. I had an issue on that one.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Especially if we feel our worth comes from the giving, we earn love by giving.
Barry Selby: And for them we don’t know that the love we gave it being given to us we don’t, we have a distorted perspective on how valuable that is. So if I keep giving it, they give us so much love back. And he goes, I haven’t given enough. I don’t deserve that much. The self abuse from that. And I went through this myself coming from a humble background and sense I didn’t value myself, which was because again, Being egotistical was the bad thing.
So I had to be the opposite of that. So the most humble I could be was the only way to be.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Which is like self less. It sounds, don’t consider yourself
Barry Selby: It’s a self-abandonment
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Yes. And I think that happens so often and codependency, right? It’s all about the other person.
Barry Selby: It is. And that’s the challenge with, I know we weren’t going to go here, but what, you put on the table with narcissistic relationships? Yes. There’s a lot of clinical stuff. You look at the DSM goes through the whole schedule of what narcissistic behaviors are like, but the true essence of narcissistic paradigm is as a selfish way of being where the other partner is used as a parasite. The pack the narcissist is a parasite using the other person to feed from them.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: And so that’s the worst experience of codependency I’m aware of, ultimately, while you’re so caught up in that paradigm, we’ve got to keep pleasing the other person forever and ever, being like a burned out husk, but then move on to somebody else. It is almost like being that parasite or I’m gonna look and go with the insect with certain creatures that basically suck the life out of another person. That’s what parasites want narcissistic behavior, does. Because they’re not just the person they never complete themselves. The true underscore for nursing people is that they never need to be approved of and be loved and be validated. They keep pulling from other people. And they burn people that way.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And it’s never going to be enough. You’re never going to give enough. You’re never going to be right enough. It’s never gonna be enough because you can’t complete another person. Just like what you said in the beginning.
Barry Selby: Right. And that’s the thing is that people who have, or partners of narcissists have such a hard time because they keep getting deeper and deeper into that wiring where they don’t know they can walk away from it.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Because they’re told because of the manipulation that comes with that. But if they walk away or if they put themselves first or they set a boundary that they’re selfish, they’re unloading they’re uncaring, you know that,
Barry Selby: Could you do that to me? Could you do that to me? Is that famous quote
Dr. Tari: Yeah. So you’re right. That’s an extreme example of codependent behavior.
Barry Selby: Yeah.
Dr. Tari: And I think on the other side of it, for those of us who come from a place where we don’t yet see our own worth or value. Maybe, because it wasn’t mirrored to us as children. So we are constantly looking to somebody else to mirror that for us to make us, they’re happy with us. Like you said then we’re good. If they’re not happy with us, we’re not good.
Barry Selby: Yeah. But it’s not a mirror. That’s the whole problem. So we don’t, cause we’re not being, we’re not being reflected back where we are. They may be doing it to us, but we don’t believe it.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: It’s still one. Because it was just a mirror back it would be great. We can say, oh, I do have that great. I own it. But most of us though, when it puts us giving it to us, cause they mirror back to us. What they see, we keep thinking, they’re just giving us a side of the generosity of their heart.
Dr. Tari: Cause we don’t believe it.
Barry Selby: It’s like having a cup, there’s a hole in the bottom. You keep pouring stuff into it and it gets pouring out. So it never ends. So then I’m burning the teaching, those teachings I was in was about learning how to be like approvals on these pieces. Learning how to approve of ourselves is one of the fundamental ways to live life in a whole healthy place. But we keep looking for other people’s approval. Being a people pleaser. I live this one for many years, is, that constant looking for other people’s approval. But the thing is. It’s like the idea of getting healthy is approval; it doesn’t stick long enough. It keeps wearing off.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: Self approval sticks, so it’s really doing the work to love ourselves, care for ourselves and support ourselves, improve ourselves.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. So how do we start doing that?
Barry Selby: Again, start with the awareness first step, but also doing things that take my approval for us. One thing I’ve worked on with our clients on what you’re doing is helping to create more self-trust is to watch our agreements. It’s one of the simplest things and it was a game changer for me when I learned six. So it was so obvious and was, I didn’t realize, but we have a habit of over agreeing, especially with we’re in codependency, we’re in with people and people will say, do you want to do this a yes, all the time. That’s an agreement process. And the trap we fall into is, we keep saying more yeses than nos, which means we keep making more agreements so we can keep. And so our ability to trust ourselves goes out the window because we can’t count on it. So to take care of us because we’re busy doing things for other people.
So when we learn how to, first of all, make less agreement. So say no more oftenly. Secondly, wipe them down, we keep track of them. Because we say no, if someone says, can you do this? I’m like, yeah, sure. And then an hour later go, you’re doing it. I just thought about it. That has no pus. So if you’re going to keep agreements, wipe them down, in a smartphone or on your Canada, wherever you do that. The third one is to be willing to, we negotiate because a lot of times we say yes, and we go, you know what, I’m going to steak. I shouldn’t have said yes to that. Can we reschedule it or can I say no to somebody else or going to send you to some other person they can help you like, renegotiate one of the things you can do. Those three things alone will change your paradigm. It’s a very nuts and bolts thing that you do this. You start to gain greater trust in yourself and great trust is very self-love.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And it goes back to that question. Does this serve me? Does this take care of me right in my practice?
Barry Selby: Yes, absolutely.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. I love that. And I think too, just this, for some of us, it’s a new idea that not only is it okay, but it’s your job. To put yourself first. I really believe in mantras and affirmations, so just say that to yourself, even if you don’t believe it, you can use Barry’s voice. You can use my voice, you need to be taking care of yourself here, start to say that to yourself.
Barry Selby: And that’s the thing is again, when you’re saying you put yourself first, that is a self-supporting statement. Not an egotistical one.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Yeah. It is a loving statement.
Barry Selby: It isn’t we would, I feel like somebody is, we’re going to send miles separate and let people realize that egotistical behavior is not what self love is a bounce, because a lot of people think they’re tied together because they seen people out there who will use this to go and selfish, and they do things for themselves don’t care about other people, no self love. And she’d say this piece too, it doesn’t mean don’t care for other people. It means you care for other people after you care for yourself as a caring gesture. Because you then can give you river flow, selfish people take care of themselves so much. Let me give a flying, whatever abandon buddy else and so that’s a very different, energetic, and you can feel it.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I think self-love obviously comes from a place of love. We give to ourselves because we know we have more to give to other people after that and egotistical behaviors come from fear, a fear of, all kinds of fear of being taken advantage of, fear of who knows what?
Barry Selby: Judgments are the biggest one.
Dr. Tari: Yeah
Barry Selby: The paradigms they fall into, just because, and again, coming from a Jewish background, I’m very well versed in the experience of guilt, but since Catholic faith. And so the wiring of that is, is that sense of being fearful of being viewed as doing something wrong.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: And it’s such a challenge because, especially with being a caring person, we take on that yoke, that burden of other people’s judgment personally, because that’s what we should do because the rules say that, you should feel guilty because somehow we upset somebody else. Again, they’ll wiring, cause this is the thing, as you said earlier, other people’s upsets their feelings, not ours, but somewhere we think we caused it. Therefore we’re responsible for it. Therefore we’re in trouble.
Dr. Tari: Yep.
Barry Selby: Yeah.
Dr. Tari: Just a salty belief.
Barry Selby: Absolutely. It sounds so simple, but it does require some rewiring because most of us have done it for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. So this is a distillation of a lot of experience. I’m not saying you can fix it like that. However, with practice you can.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. And I outthrow into that, another thing about. Something we can rewire is just because somebody has a need that you could meet doesn’t mean you should doesn’t mean you want to, it doesn’t mean you have to.
Barry Selby: Yeah.
Dr. Tari: I think that’s a hard one for people,
Barry Selby: Because I think a lot of times it’s like, when you want, when you think you can do something, I was just like, why? Like, why would I want to because, the, most people when they see a need that can be filled by them, they’re doing it because honestly, that can make other people think that better person, they can be approved again, back to the approval loop, because we think that other people will approve us. We’ll be okay.
Dr. Tari: Yeah.
Barry Selby: Can you be okay without doing that thing? Yes, of course you can. Are you willing to though?
Dr. Tari: Yup. Yeah. Is it coming from a place of taking care of yourself or is it coming from a place of, trying to earn love or seek approval?
Barry Selby: Exactly.
Dr. Tari: Good questions to ask yourself.
Barry Selby: I want with that plenty of those
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Like you said, the first step to change is awareness that there’s something you want to change, that there’s a pattern you want to change.
Barry Selby: That’s been a thing I’ve done. Especially now it’s gotten much easier over the years, but it’s when somebody asks me for something or to do something, and I’ve been in a care giving, caregiving role over the last couple of years. What I’ve learned to do in a very nuts and bolts daily practice is to look at what’s happening and go, okay, what’s true. Why am I getting triggered by this versus getting to reaction, to this, the other part, getting awareness piece even after all these years, I’m still going on again. What’s going on here? What’s this about? And it’s, in one case it was a simple thing. It was one of the person, who was helping.
She had gone to a place of being very summative because I was taking care of her. And what I wanted her to do was to say, thank you. She hadn’t. So I simply said, I’d love it. If you’d say thank you. And every so often she did and it’s problem, solved. It. Wasn’t a big upset. It wasn’t an argument. It was just like, oh, that was simple because I was aware enough to ask the question.
Dr. Tari: Exactly. It’s not even that she was doing anything wrong, you just realized you needed something and you asked for it.
Barry Selby: Yeah. And that wasn’t codependent. I was simply a part of me that was just feeling out of sorts because I felt like there was an imbalance there. And that’s the thing with this is it looks codependent because it’s like yeah, but the thing is I’m having to do something. So I feel better if you wanna look on, that macro level. But the reality is we are still interdependent in the work in the journey I was in. I’ve seen his work out of Vancouver, chemical warrior stage I studied with, and it talks about, there were three levels of relationship. The first level was very codependent, very mesh relationships where basically, it was like the model was the one of the family, Archie Bunker and Edith Bunker back in the day, if you ever saw that Nick at Night or wherever, because basically he was the bull of the house.
He ran the show, very egotistical. She was a meek housewife. But he couldn’t live without each other, it looks like food love, but it wasn’t his very good intermesh codependent love. Then the second level is more independent, especially this happened after the sexual revolution in the sixties or seventies for women, where women, but basically you got to have freedom to do their own things. So they got their own jobs. There are bank accounts that are in apartments around cars. They didn’t need men anymore. So relationships became very independent. And I remember dating back in the eighties and nineties where women I was meeting was, so independent, we’d be banging heads because they were basically as like, in leadership or masculine.
And as I was, or I should say macho, its, I was trying to be like being in like a male. And that’s the independent relationship where basically you don’t need anything for anybody else. So it’s so much, transactional relationship there’s no joy. There’s no real love. It’s just, it’s convenient in some ways. But the evolution, the third level, which is what was taught, which is the work I’m really enjoying and immersed in it’s called interdependence. So it has a level of, we don’t need each other, but we want each other. So in a relationship we can be together where. Because there are certain things that I can do, my ponder can’t in my mark and do, I can’t it’s not codependent. Just that I know that’s better.
Like I might be in Russia where I’m a better cook than my ponder is. That’s not a codependent thing. That’s just I have to like the food that we eat and all that, but I can do a better job, whatever that is, or she’s better with the books or whatever that is. So understanding where your skill sets are and you can be complimentary that way. And if it’s together, that’s interdependence. So independence means that it’s where you really are living in a place where you’re both individual wholeness comes together and it becomes greater together. Like they just don’t have the two of you is greater than some of the parts.
Dr. Tari: Yes. No, I love that we’re ending here on what does health look like? And it’s this interdependence, I love what you said. It’s not that we need each other, but we want each other.
Barry Selby: That’s the best way to be.
Dr. Tari: Yeah, and, go ahead.
Barry Selby: It just wasn’t safe because of that, that takes away that, you complete methodology to incomplete. Will you join me?
Dr. Tari: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes. And I, what, I want people to hear this too, that if you’re feeling resentful, like you’re doing too much and you wish your partner would appreciate you more stop doing so much, don’t look for them to change how they feel about you. But if you’re feeling like if you’re feeling like you’re not being appreciated, stop doing so damn much, that’s what you’re in control of.
Barry Selby: And the second piece, rather than getting upset with them. You could say to them after you’ve really got back to yourself, you’re saying, I read, I was getting out of whack, and ended up in salts when this was happening. I’d love it. If you would do this instead as an invitation versus a demand
Dr. Tari: Yes. And either way, I’m going to make sure that I’m only doing what feels good for me to do. I’m only going to give what I actually want to give. Yes. Taking responsibility, each person, taking responsibility for their own piece.
Barry Selby: So this is what adulting, I think
Dr. Tari: Yes, healthy adulting.
Barry Selby: Exactly.
Dr. Tari: Oh my gosh. I’ve loved this conversation so much. I just feel like codependency is such a term that gets thrown around, but not always understood what it actually is and how to lean away from it. So I think this conversation is going to help a lot of people.
Barry Selby: I’d like to think so would be if it does.
Dr. Tari: Yeah. So Barry, if people want to find you, where can we find you?
Barry Selby: These are my stats, my website, which is my name, Barry sober.com. I actually have a five-part video series on my site, which is from YouTube, which is called cracking the codependency code. So we’ve talked about this with a friend of mine, Janie. She’s a real sweetheart. No, she’s in San Antonio. We met up, this is the last, this was before the pandemic. We sat down and did the videos together. And, we did the big five-part series, it was really fun. We had a great conversation. And so it’s about the puppet master, if a few other things that we talked about here. So I recommend watching that.
Also, if you want to find out more about how to work with me, there’s a let’s chat button on my website and click on that and sign up for a conversation. I also have, my book is on them, I actually have a self-love meditation, which by the way, which is a. It sounds simple, but it’s potent. It’s a guided meditation that you do in the mirror twice a day. That takes you to a 30 day process. That basically puts you in a place where at the end of 30 days, your relationship with self is transformed and everybody else transforms as a side effect, but it’s not, it’s very basically with just a, just an affirmational practice.
So it’s not about processing through stuff it’s simply just doing affirmations because when you do that, you just start to notice things in your life during the day and become more aware of what’s happening in your life. So it’s a really powerful tool. And also to my YouTube, I have lots of videos on my YouTube channel because I’ve done lots of talks about loving relationships over the last few years. So you should go to youtube.com/barry there’ll be find me there as well. On social media on Instagram. My account somehow got hacked and I had to change over to the real Barry Selby.
Dr. Tari: Ahh, yes. And what is the title of your book?
Barry Selby: It’s called 50 ways to love your lover. It’s a pretty principle for a healthy relationship with yourself and other people. So it’s not just, it’s not 50, it’s not 50 positions.
Dr. Tari: Let’s be clear what this book is.
Barry Selby: Let’s be clear, it’s 50 principals are healthy relationships,
Dr. Tari: Awesome, and where can they get that?
Barry Selby: If you go to my website or Barry selby.com/book, or you run it on Amazon.
That physical copy is on Kindle and I keep promising or threatening an audio version at some point as it has not happened yet.
Dr. Tari: That’s the same for me. Thank you so much, Barry. Definitely want to have you back. Love our conversations. Love everything you have to say.
Barry Selby: It was a pleasure being here. Thank you for inviting me.
It has been a good conversation with me too. Thank you again.
Dr. Tari: Thanks for tuning into Dear Dater. This is Dr. Tari, reminding you that if you want love, that’s meant for you.